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Yes, because people do not want to play unviable trash and get shat on every game. The only problematic killer here is Myers. The rest have counterplay.
About time someone said it…variety is what gives this game longevity
I think that I have a reverse of your ideas Kaiser where for the killers with other ways to kill should not have any hooks in the trails and focus more on the alternate way of killing. Balancing aside cause one person's balance is other's unbalance
The only thing with the Myers suggestion is that people push hard for him to have unlimited stalk, like that’s a buff a lot of people want for him including myself, so I just think changing it to a certain percentage of stalk would work better, but in all reality Myers needs a full on rework anyway
In my opinion, killers should deviate from hooks more. It’s a bit boring.
Also, Sadako is not as easy to get her condemnation at the moment. As a Sadako main, most of the time you have to brute force the condemn if you want it to go off. It’s a difficult play style because experienced players only skip up if they’re forced to. Which they only do when they are losing or close to popping the last gen. The only reason Sadako can stand on her own is because her kit has versatility given through that mechanic. Your suggestion would eliminate her comeback potential, making her weaker.
Alternate lethality is not a bad thing. It should be done more, as it’ll make things more interesting for survivors as well.
I think the lethality of Sadako, Pyramid Head, and Pig is mostly fine but I absolutely love your Myers idea. Would definitely feel more balanced, especially for tombstone piece.
Chases are over-rated. Making everything chase oriented is stupid, limits killer design, and is clearly a survivor minded attitude. These are the same people that want Tombstone Myers removed from the game.
You are almost spot on with Pig imo. What i would want is for RBTs to not be allowed to be taken off until a Gen has been completed. THEN, I want all of her Chase add Ons to be base kit, so that all of her add ons apply different status effects with maybe penalties to BRT time or how long it takes to search boxes etc. if this were the case, i could finally main her in peace
I actually loved Sadako 2.0 on both sides, but I know I'm alone in that…
Ditto for the chase take. I understand where it comes from for content creators and very deep veterans, but I've never felt that way at all. I enjoy decisionmaking and macro play. I love killers that make me think (both sides!) and one of the special parts of DBD is variety. The more killers play the same the more their builds are the same and the more the playstyles follow…that would get old, fast!
I dont see why they need to be changed. They are all fine to me.
my issue with myers tombstone is that 90% of the time its unexpected. someone just up and dies 3 minutes into the match. then its a 3v1 at 3-5 gens and its just stupid.
the ultra rare tombstone has a tell with myers himself being noticibly slowed. but the stupid tombstone piece is litteraly invisible until someone just gets instakilled. it doesnt even apply its charge time penalty after the first tier 3.
i've had the same suggestion for a while. tombstone should have a unique tier up sound compared to normal myers. and the mori ability shouldnt be available for the first 4 seconds of tiering up.
alongside that change, we let tombstone mori people with all grabs. locker, gen, totem and whatever else. its important to note that you cant enable mori'ing from the dying state since slugging into a mori would be an issue.
the only suggestion i would make to the reverse beartraps is that the timer rewinds while in chase at a 1:1 time ratio. and stays paused for 5 seconds after the chase ends (just like almost every other end of chase effect) it would make it much harder to force head pops by following the survivor around or chasing them off boxes.
for sadoko i've never really had an issue with her. when compared to the other two she has to work a lot more for her instakill. between the time it takes to get someone condemed and the time it takes to down them. its considerably longer than myers running up to someone with an 8 meter terror radius and instantly killing them. sadoko has enough counterplay to make it hard to force kills. at least currently.
They should give every killer a knife and let them run fast
I started using Freddy but I play him as a chase Freddy since in my opinion it’s the only way I can actually play for some reason
Words can’t describe how annoyed I am that Xenomorph doesn’t have a chestburster alternate lethality
I think Sadako in her current state is just about perfect. The only thing they need to do – and they might have already done it, I'm not sure, I actually hook people as Sadako – is make it so you begin to lose condemned while you're on the ground. So if you hook them, you lock in a lot of their condemned value, and if you slug them for prolonged periods of time, you lose condemned. Otherwise she is alternate lethality done right, and an M1 killer done right. She has a unique gameplay style, unique counterplay, and she's pretty solidly mid-tier which is a healthy place to be.
My thought for pig?
The bear trap is a constant threat. Survivors start with it on, and finding the key only resets the timer and deactivates the countdown. But make it easier than a gen getting completed to initiate the countdown. Say a meter that as you complete gens, unhook others, heal others, it fills. The countdown starts when the meter fills. Chase, dying state, and being hooked would pause the countdown.
The only thing that really bugs me about alternative lethality killers, though this is more limited to Myers and specifically Baby Myers, is that it feels like there's no way to "correctly counter him" like once he has sniffed your feet he will just hunt you down until you run out of map or resources all the while you or your teammates are feeding him stalk and he'll then just hangout at hook to try for easy tombstone that way. Or at least that's how it feels to me, since I've been going against a lot of baby Myers in SoloQ as of late.
in short, I just don't like how he doesn't really have to work for his mori with Tombstone Peice and Tuft of Hair or basically any Tombstone Peice combination.
That said, the real remedy for Myers is to just rework him entirely, since he suffers from being the first licensed killer being added to DbD and is a remnant of that old design.
BHVR keeps destroying a character I paid for. Sadako started weak, so a few people made her into something tolerable with slugging—survivor complains.
They buff her to a strong state, which I now enjoy. I can finally get my money's worth—Survivor complains because they don't want to pick up tapes, which is on them to do.
BHVR nerfs her to almost back where she started. She sucks, so people went back to slugging with her. I stopped playing her entirely, and will never buy another killer unless the Thing shows up. Survivor complains again about slugging—people need to pick a lane.
I love the idea of killers that can be lethal and kill you flat out, but the problem with them is that a few of them, (specifically myers and pig) give no counter play, or choice to the survivors. If you go to a large map, and pig is running the tampered timer, and crate of gears, and a survivor gets a 4 search box, they literally die just because they got unlucky. If myers brings tombstone piece and you’re in a dead zone, he’s just gonna kill you with no options. Ik ppl say it’s the fault of the survivor for going to a dead zone but sometimes survivors just have to drop so many pallets, just to avoid dying, that a lot of the map will be a dead zone. And yes you can jump into a locker, but if myers just 99% his tier 3, the survivor just has to be lucky there’s a locker near by, and take a gamble that he’s gonna activate it. I think lethal death killers would be more fun, if the death was at the mistakes of the survivors, or good plays of the killers skillfully
Thing is, people complain about these 4 killers, because they HAVE to learn AND play differently, than the other killers, just like you said, not only chasing and 3 hook states and they hate it, because they have to adapt to it. I like alternate lethality killers, they are super interesting, even if it can be abused to get at least one kill (looking at you Pig).
Sadako and pig I think are the main outliers here. Myres IS problematic as his addon's are what enable it and as a survivor, if you're caught with your pants down, there is nothing you can do to stop it. Plus as mentioned before, it can happen at 0 hook states.
Pig and Sadako however provide an "alternative objective" to doing gens. "Dont do/manage the thing or die". Personally I think conceptually that's pretty balanced. Execution can be another thing.
The pig's ability to not engage in chase while crouched by a survivor with a trap on to me is really stupid. I think if they dont have a trap its fine, but if they have one, she shouldnt be able to do that. Though one could argue if people just committed to gens while this was happening then she'd only get a 1k but that's a lot to ask of any normal team nowadays (haha -_-)
The way I describe it is "built-in slowdown". These powers are designed to be, and are most effective as forcing 1 or 2 survivors into a side objective while you chase down and harass the others. That's where their true strength lies
I guarantee that the “most of the (probably survivor) community” is just complaining that they have to do more than 5 gens in under 60 seconds
I've been sitting on this idea for a while, I really despise piece and judith's on Myers.
tombstone piece grants undetectable while stalking, increases terror radius by 8 meters to all tiers
judiths tombstone grants additional vault speed to tier 2 and tier 3 doubles. while in tier 3 pallets stunning you instantly break, stun duration can not be effected by perks
I feel like adding insta kill options for uninteractive but very weak killers is a bad solution no matter how old the killer is
As a Sadako main, i don't think that you're idea would be unhealthy or anything, but mains get mad if you change their killers power in a significant way.
I mean we Sadako mains even got mad, when condemn became too easy, just because it didn't feel like her anymore.
And Sadako mains love the killing through condemn so much, we still do it, even when we have to force it, due to it being so bad, that it would never happen through normal gameplay.
Changing her power into slowdown would probably make her lose the last few mains she still has.
Alternate Lethalities require a special condition to be enacted; Executioner with Torment, Onyro with Condemn, Pig with Reverse Bear-traps activating after generators are completed, etc. It’s perfectly balanced the way it is, what’s not fun is giving killers to kill straight away with add-ons cough Shape
Honeslty. I think the killers are fine as they are and the DBD community just likes to bitch when something isn't given to them on a silver platter. Each of the alternate lethality killers already have conditions in place that say, "you fucked up so now you're dead" built into them already.
Myers: You let him catch you. Nine times out of ten, you let him catch you because you thought you could be a cheeky shithead and bully him.
Pig: You didn't have a team that was working with you, and you fucked around too much. So either through letting Pig cross your path, or letting that timer on the bear trap run down… you're dead now. You can even thank your teammates for starting the timer on your trap instead of helping buy you time to get it off.
Sadako: You fucked around with that tape in your hand. You let yourself get cursed and basically painted a target on your back. You only have yourself to blame for that one.
Each one of these generally never happen when the survivors actually play the game normally. The only real exception is that since Myers is so fast in tier 3, he's still going to catch survivors that can't loop well. But I'm also kind of fine with that too. So he instamori'ed you? Okay. Shit happens, move on to the next game and save the salt for your next chicken dinner.
At the end of the day, most of this problem I think just stems from the community not being to touch grass and get over themselves.
Im glad im not the only one with this perspective. If every killer was wesker or Billy the game would get so stale so quick and for some people even with all these different killers it still does. People should embrace variety even if it doesn't always mean they have the best chance of winning a match at all times.
KAISER WITH ANOTHER BANGER
I’m kinda in the middle. While when I play against them pig and pyramid head it feels balanced and interesting. Sadako though is an odd one because I feel like I still got no idea how her powers works even when I try to figure the gimmick out.
Any decent myers would never tombstone a survivor with full stalk. So this whole. "They fed him and died." Is dumb. I will tombstone the person ive been stalking bc they will have no stalk left. Im not gonna kill the survivor with full stalk then i couldnt T3 again.
I know this is completely off topic, but I really don't wanna comment this anywhere else, since I would probably receive an abnormous amount of hate.
I've been playing league of legends for 7 years and I also have 1000 hours in dead by daylight, and I have to say that the league of legends community is not nearly as bad, as toxic or insufferable as dead by daylight community. I like dbd as a game, but the community makes me wanna play botgames and botgames only. This community is probably the worst thing I have encountered online.
I find it funny how you killer mains cried about a 3% speed boost from made for this, but now you're suggesting a permanent 7% debuff to speed for survivors.
I don't really like any of these ideas but I can see where you are going. Pig would be useless, myers would be even worse than before, and anything fun about tombstone is gone. And onryo would never be played. I actually really enjoy alternate lethality killers and I believe they all deserve a spot in the game
Tombstone is the only problematic one he can insta-mori you when in tier 3 and the infinite tier 3 it’s just find a locker and force him to hook you but Pig and Sadako are both fine pig needs lethality to her RBT’s to make them actually slowdown the survivors and sadako is manageable if you remember to just cleanse. As someone who has also played way too much pig the only nerf to her RBT’s would be removing crate and bag of gears since those raise the lethality of the RBT’s 10 fold but still they aren’t OP with both those add ons in play but I think replacing them with some sort of debuff add on like Kaiser suggested would be good
The problem is map balance, so without an anti loop, you just get stomped. I love seeing killers without anti loop so many safe pallets and loops. I just stomped them. But I like your pov on this. I always felt pig should effect gens like10 percent slower per active trap to be impactful. Also, being she didn't have chase before not sure if she does now or not I like the idea of having an 8th Gen she is known for rigging the game why not have a Gen that is fake? But as someone playing both sides gens are not fun to do the concept of doing 6 to get 5 with all the slowdowns is not good. Personally, I would like all slowdowns and gens speed ups perks and ad ons removed from the game but that's me.
As a Pig main – I'm all for removing the lethality of the trap mid-match, but I would make a few tweaks to make it more engaging for the survivors, and let teams make meaningful choices with it. I will suggest some specifics below, but ultimately the jist is – stacking debuffs that get worse the longer you ignore the traps as the game progresses, but with "bail out" points for people.
1. Make the tape baseline – everyone starts with one on. It does nothing at the start at all. It's just a hat.
2. When a gen activates, the traps activate into Stage 1. Stage one is simply a 3% debuff to repair speeds for anyone wearing one, plus an additional 3% for every person still wearing a trap (so 15%, like he suggested, 6% if you're the last one wearing one, 3% if only 1 person still has one on and you don't, etc.). Jigsaw boxes activate at this time to find a key. The twist? There are only 2 keys.
3. Once two traps have been removed or 3 total gens are done, the remaining people with traps become Broken. Survivors can use any jigsaw box to swap the trap between them (ie: a player with no hook states could take the trap from someone who is in danger). The boxes activate with a third key once 2 more gens (3 total) are done.
4. When only one trap is left, or only 1 gen is left, trapped survivors suffer from, say, oblivious and blind as well as broken. They can still swap it off to any other willing survivor un-trapped survivor.
5. When the last gen is done, the trap activates its usual killswitch – trying to leave kills you, and a timer starts. The final key spawns in a box somewhere. But in a true SAW fashion, any other willing survivor can try to pry it off of you. Doing immediately puts the "savior" in a tombstone like-state and they can be mori'd instantly without being downed. The debuff can be called "Made Your Choice." – But they also no longer leave scratch marks and become immune to aura reading.
6. HOWEVER – if NO ONE removes a trap and all the gens are done, instead all the traps instantly deactivate and both gates immediately get 50% progress. The Killer's aura is also revealed for 3 seconds. This is their reward for showing a "will to live" and playing the game.
It would very likely need tweaking – I'm not a game designer – nor do I want a "free endgame kill." (I like to let all 4 live, tbh). I do want it to feel less like a CHORE to deal with and more like "Oh shit, this is a SAW round" where the killer is a threat but there's more going on. You can choose to rush gens and suffer through the penalties to get a payoff, or deal with them bit by bit but shifting the pressure onto specific members of your team in a bit of a choice making game.
I could see this being a bit too hard on solo Q though, candidly. So a lot of balancing would need to be done.
My only counter point is this is only an issue because the players behind sadako and pig are the problem. Sadako currently has the best Mind games the game if people would stop focusing on condemned as a main strat. She can walk through body blocks can be immune to pallet stuns and be an absolute menace at windows but people refuse to learn how she works just because the condemned mori is easy. Same thing for the pigs rbts there is no reason to camp boxes now because her ambush is actually viable yet 90% of pigs still do it. Point blank alternative lethality isn't the problem here its the player behind the killers mindset and stubborn refusal to adapt and learn.
I've always told my friends that the add-on that gives Myers perma T3 should require every survivor to be fully stalked.
I’ve been maining sadako for probably 700ish hours and I would absolutely hate those changes tbh :/ the thing is, when she got her first rework that yes made her stronger, completely killed my passion for the killer. I think she’s in a much better spot now where survivors can’t ignore her and she can’t get an easy 4k by spamming tp. She requires thought to play as now. The hinder idea you had will only persuade people to just waste time spamming tp around them and it would feel AWFUL to play against her 😭. Not only that but thematically and lore wise condemned NEEDS to kill. If condemned doesn’t kill, then it’s not sadako. Taking out her alternate lethality removes everything that makes her so special to the fans of the movies and books, and the people who play her. Another thing is she is so easy to counter atm. Sorry for the rant I just love sadako and I think this is the best she’s ever been. And people on twitter will always whine about every killer no matter what. Literally I have never seen anyone say a positive thing abt playing against any killer when I’m on twitter. It’s just a toxic cesspool of people who are addicted and don’t actually have fun with the game.
I play both Surv and Killer . . . keep alternate lethality as is, except show in post how much stalk each surv had left . . .
I mean… I appreciate the fact you're tryina think outside the box and be open minded but I feel like your brain fell out this time.
Doing gens is the most boring and tedious part of playing a survivor, it takes ages without gen rush perks or items, 99% of killers run gen regression meta and your suggestion is gen speed penalty. Yikes dude.
Same goes for Hinder bs. Getting slowed down is single handedly the most annoying status effect because it actively screws you in chase (which IS the most fun part of DBD). Even small fractions of Hindered (let's say 3%) still feels awful because killers are already so much faster + gain BL + have A LOT of perks that give them movement speed.
I can't believe you missed the opportunity for a joke by not including skull merchant in every category
Honestly, never had any issue with the mini mori killers. Meyers is probably the roughest, but if you dive into lockers, you at least can buy a lot more time for your time. But pig can't prevent players completely from being able to remove party hats without specifically tunneling someone out in the way you listed, pringle's cages and mori are just a slightly more convenient way of dealing with survivors who were stupid/unfortunate enough to step on the trail, and sadako certainly exists. I never ever had an issue with her in any of her states because I'm not an idiot who doesn't understand that you grab tapes and get rid of tapes to keep condemn off of you. The only thing I hated were gooners who slugged everyone, but that's more of the slugging playstyle being obnoxious than sadako herself.
They literally kept how the reverse bear trap works. How does buffing the basekit nerf reverse traps?
I like the Myers idea you had. However, people will complain no matter what. Let what happens, happen?
I agree in that it feels like behavior is trying to push back "side objectives' in killers and i think thats just a dumb strategy. When every killer is chase the game itself loses all variety besides what skin am i running form today and will i know they have a heartbeat before or after the first chase.
As Sadako main im unsure how i feel about it. I love her mori to death its so fun and part of my first experience against her that got me maining her, but i do see that if you changed her lethality to be more like pyramid head the door would open up to more interesting interactions and better add ons to truly deliver the chaotic floods shes supposed to be. Status and debuffs can truly shine on survivors based on condemn stacks and make for a pretty versatile killer if tied to condemn stacks and youd be able to open up to a stronger condemn push without too much balance worry. However i dont trust behavior to make this kind of change well, took them multiple months since rework to fix her ring drawing which broke during her rework PTB and we still have multiple blindness add ons and a range of add ons so reliant on powered on tvs that they are nothing more then bloodpoint wasters in the bloodweb.
"In dead by daylight there are 5 different categories of killer"
Anti-Loop: Skull Merchant
Chase: Skull Merchant
Range: Skull Merchant
Control: Skull Merchant
Stealth: Skull Merchant
Reminds me of the doom eternal community where there was a group of people demanding that Doom be made hard and for the most skilled player basically leaving the casuals out because they you know didn't play nightmare all the fucking time and just wanted to enjoy the game as they wanted. It feels like that when people say that every dbd killer needs to be a chase killer which would make the game boring since well what's the point of playing certain killers besides personal reason?
this is something that ive been thinking about, and alternate lethality is a problem but it mostly depends on how its implimented, for instance lets look at tombstone myers, he can stalk ur teamates and boom ur the one who gets instakilled ive seen people just standing there feeding myers as well, some killers i feel like they force to remain weak, in other areas due to their alternate lethality, for instance imagin if cond wasnt a thing for sadako think of how much better they could have made her, however they buffed her cond and had to revert it because it was just too much.
tbh as a sadako main they just need to rework her completely, like imagin if like each stack of the cond, like for instance making her lullaby map wide and greying out the screen, at 2 stacks, and then have it take something fairly long to get get rid of the stacks, idk theres a whole different rout they could take her,
like again on sadako, in the past u could completely ignore her power making her effectly a tp and m1 killer,
tho my favorite version of sadako will always be reikos watch and clump of hair, and what do u know they go nerf the addons
tho this could be probably because she might have been a half baked killer to begin with if u wanna go with the rumors
sometimes i feel like im the only one who enjoys mori myers lol. last game against him i felt sorry for him as it seemed he was struggling to keep up… until the chase icon abruptly ends after he hits tier 3