Read more Dead by Daylight ➜ https://deadbydaylight.mgn.gg
http://www.twitch.tv/ScottJund
Old video about map design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B17QdQ2db1w&t=436s
source
Read more Dead by Daylight ➜ https://deadbydaylight.mgn.gg
http://www.twitch.tv/ScottJund
Old video about map design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B17QdQ2db1w&t=436s
source
Fixing one map and adding one shitty map actually does increase the ratio of good maps to shitty maps. 1/10 would become 2/10 becomes 3/10. It’s incredibly slow but still…
I'm not kidding, I played Wesker a few times (6-7 matches and not in a row) and I only got Garden of joy. What. The. Fuck. I couldn't enjoy the killer how was supposed to because the godamm bushes have ridiculous big hitboxes.
Maps are my biggest frustration with DBD as well, aside from 69k hour nurses 4king my solo playing ass at 5 gens. However I'm not sure how well they'd be able to balance maps in DBD since killer powers are so different. For example Trickster is strongest at short walled loops as he can very easily machine gun a survivor over them, but Pyramidhead is stronger at tall walled structures as it is harder for a survivor to see where he is aiming and henceforth dodge the shockwave. Deathslinger and huntress are weaker on maps with lots of structures to break LOS, but stealth killers are stronger on these maps since they can more easily get the jump on survivors. It's very easy to say just balance the maps, but frankly it would be impossible to balance every map for every killer since every killer has their own strengths and weaknesses with map designs.
So while I agree map balance is ass I'm reluctant for tons of map changes.
I genuinely like that we have different play experiences on various maps. IMHO if every map was basically coal tower then this game would be extremely boring. For Comp sure but I don't want maps to turn into Omega Stages from Smash where they're all just reskins of the most competitive map.
It's nice to load into Rotten fields as Hillbilly or an Indoor map as Ghostface.
So while im for toning down the extremes I think maps should play much differently from one another.
imo maps like The Game, Larry's, RPD, etc… should have a gamemode of their own lol
I think your approach to this topic at its core is correct, but some of your reasons are quite false. I DO think BHVR need to stop making maps, but I DON'T think map design is the core problem to addressing game balance – only part of the problem. Truth is, it's a 'have your cake and eat it too' kinda scenario. Maps can't be balanced to all play the same way and be fair for both sides, because we don't have a competitive mode. Think about it. If there was a competitive mode, that's where players would expect consistency in matches. Because it's comp, so the grounds to play comp have to be fixed to a set guideline of rules – X amount of windows, X amount of loops, X amount of pallets, X size of map.. etc. Everything is controlled in comp.
I don't think players are drawing their conclusions from 3 or 4 or 10 experiences. That's crazy talk. Anyone that plays this game long enough will know it takes a while before you can get a feel for any killer – let alone, it being after release, and not just on PTB (where things are likely to change). It's clear that the map is only half the factor. Players still have to play good on those maps – even something like The Game (though not very much). Every game has good maps and bad maps. Every game. And every game's maps, can be stronger for one side or the other, from map to map. It all depends on the competitive experience you want. DBD doesn't have much of a comp scene because there's nothing that's really off limits. Nothing that's GA'ed by certain players. There's sweaty players, but nobody that really plays with morals for certain usages of certain perks, addons, offerings, maps, etc.
But a competitive mode would help solve a lot of problems. That's what you, Scott, don't see. Competitive mode, get's people thinking and playing more seriously. And it wouldn't take long before discussions can start with a more competitive outlook in mind. I do have to reiterate though that comp is not casual – and so whatever adjustments get made to comp, don't necessarily have to get brought to casual. But comp can help shape casual if it's seen as a quality of life improvement for the game in general. Comp frames your perspective to focus more objectively. Because comp is ultimately about the objective, and the components needed to get that objective done. Anything that jeopardizes that or is seen to have too much of or not enough of an affect – to get that objective done, can be GA'ed by other players pretty quickly.
So let me reiterate. The core problem why this game can't be balanced properly, is because we don't have a competitive mode.
If casuals are sat asking why they can't contribute to the discussion – it's because there is less care by those players in getting the objective done.
Again to reiterate, competitive players are not sweaty players. Competitive players see the game more objectively, considering all of the components necessary and integral to the experience of completing the objective. What's necessary for survivors to do. What's necessary for killer to do. What's necessary for maps to have. As well as what's not necessary.
And if you argue this game could never work with a competitive mode – you're wrong. DBD is a single gamemode, is it not? Yet why do competitive gamemodes in other games have MULTIPLE modes??
Competitive represents control and limitations. And there's definitely things that could be limited on both survivor and killer. Comp often does very little that drastically alters the experience in casual – but what it does do often is limit players in as many ways as seen fit. But buffing can be granted as well if it is seen fit. There's just more focus on asking the question "won't do players not need".
Getting shelter woods as a survivor is heart breaking vs getting something like garden of joy and knowing it's a free escape unless half the team is afk.
The thing with creating no new maps and reworking old ones, as shown with R6 Siege, is that most of the community wont care and even though its objectively better for the maps to be reworked the majority of players will still hate it and want a new map because all they care about is content
New favourite Scott Jund intro
Just a thought on map design in general: they need to have a dedicated dimension when it comes to map sizes. Whether that's 1300 units or more/less, you get the idea. Some maps (Gideon's) are very small but are primarily all about verticality whereas other maps (Ormond) are all about being a 1 dimensional plane. They need to sit down and really iron out how they want maps to be formulated and made, bring some consistency to the table. No killer should be reliant on what map they're on, they should all be viable regardless of the map and the sole determining factor on how that match goes should be strictly between how the survivors and killer play. Another issue with their map design: EVERYTHING IS RANDOMLY GENERATED. Hook spawns, gen spawns, loops, I was even told recently (so not a fact just an anecdote that I still need to do more research into) that the asset COLLISION boxes are even randomly generated. What's so hard about making static maps? Take Freddy's maps for example. Not discussing how good or bad they are, just look at how there's 4-5 different variants for the same map. Why can't they just make 4-5 static variants of the same 'biome'? This makes preventing godloops, hook spawn droughts (looking at you Midwich) and just general dead zones easy as well as easily tweakable. There's just too much rng behind how the maps are done and that contributes to making it really difficult to balance.
That's just my two cent's worth. At the end of the day we all know Behaviour will only take the easy way out, they're allergic to hard work. Going through and removing all of the rng elements in favor of static asset placement would take a tremendous amount of time and energy, something they've shown they either don't have or don't want to exert. But I do agree that at this point in the game's lifecycle: Maps Are The Issue.
Scott, I completely agree. However, in addition to fixing maps to be more balanced, I also think they should implement a map ban system. Every map is still going to affect each killer differently and it would really help address that by adding a map ban system. I also think map offerings are dumb and should be removed.
Hey Scott, I feel you missed a variable team. Sure, map is a factor in balance. But even then both sides can be right.
Take the game for example. Most killers don’t do well on the game. So it’s considered a survivor sided map. But there are some killers who do quite well there. Legion doesn’t care about god pallets and traverse the map easily. Sadako can teleport around and stay stealthy.
Then take shelter woods. An extremely killer sided map. But kind of large actually. So take a killer who relies on getting downs quickly but you can make play very safe. Say billy all of the sudden those 4 jungle gyms that spawned just ruined your day. Or maybe you are a pig that has to crouch around in the open.
I think purely the variance in the rng of map tiles and the vastly different styles of play of killers per add on creates a lose lose balance situation.
My suggestion. Scrub/Rework problematic add ons. Reduce the size of the largest maps. Reduce the amount of rng, for example dead dog has rng but it’s pretty stable so you know what you’re in for.
And slightly more playable filler pallets, less pallets that are either trash or godlike.
That would increase fun for both sides. Take garden of Joy. If survivors throw the god pallets to fast they lose. If they greed and save them for the right time they win. It’s not as impactful as like the beautiful Hawkins map that had great areas for both sides.
I think there should be a small version of every map for m1 killers like Clown and Doctor, a medium set of maps for medium mobility killers like Wesker and Spirit, and a larger map for killers like Nurse and Blight, then they can balance the killers and maps. How can Clown possibly be balanced on Midwich and Thompson House at the same time?
map ive always seem to have trouble with is Mother's Dwelling. also to be fair i play as Trapper and that's rough enough as is but getting that map just feels so miserable as an m1 killer. i have nothing against big maps i think having a few is a nice balance but on some killers they just feel like "welp lets see how many hooks i can get" type games and that takes a bit of piss out of the game.
You bring up a valid point but I think that you're wrong here. I think the disparity also creates variety where if what you said went through we would have homogenized games that would become stagnant.
I was 100% sure this video would be about Nurse, but yeah map design is fair too.
Kind of loops back around to nurse too, since the counter to any "map is bad" argument is always "well Nurse is good on that map".
Unfortunately, BHVR is still in their content-addiction-phase and refuses to just take a break from making new shit. Let's hope that changes too at some point.
Speaking of Homeless looking… I now picture Scott is a homeless guy behind my local gas station, and he's just shouting his Dead By Daylight commentary to the locals going in for a snack or a bathroom break.
But then you start running into issues like all maps being the same when you both stop making new maps and only make maps that are balanced for both sides.
I half agree, but honestly it's just not really a problem to me. There are hundreds of perks and over 20 killers, there's never going to be balance. Someone's going to suck at some map at some point in the game.
The only thing that I wish they'd do is make the maps that Killers come out with, designed to excel in those maps specifically. Like Oni and Spirit should excel in Yamaoka, Hag and Twins in Swamp, Freddy in Badham, Billy and Bubba in cornfields, etc. It sucks when a killer can't even be good in their own map.
the thing is the map desingers think by making the maps bigger they think it makes the games go longer… its the cheapest way to increase game times… but it fucks with the game balance so much they just become bad.
You can't focus on a single variable when making this argument. If this is a true analysis, the subjective verbiage must be omitted.
I hate most pallet loops. There’s zero mind game, both sides hold w cuz u there’s no point doubling back cuz the survivor can see u do it. The only real gameplay is whether the killer gets stunned or not and if ur a good killer u know it’s better to just take the stun and break it while they run to another pallet loop and do the same exact thing
I was talking with my friend about shelter woods. Its literally THE map that is broken for killers and it hasnt been fixed at all.. with the new created loops its just more awful than it was. But like why… just put more loops on it and pallets and it should be fine.. but its this one big deadzone everywhere you go