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Patrick is Dead by Daylight’s Lead Gameplay Designer. He does not understand DBD… Or Hockey.
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Patrick is right, hear me out.
In Minecraft speedrunning, what counts is how long it took you to beat the ENDER DRAGON. Not the zombie, not the blaze, not the ghast, the ender dragon. Therefore in Dead by Daylight, all these things that happen in the game shouldn't even matter, just like Minecraft. If you escaped, you won. If you didn't, you lost.
Let's follow Patricks hockey analogy and considered the drafting process to be the "Skilled based matchmaking" for getting players into the professional league. If "goals" were the only thing that was counted as "skilled" then I could gather two teams of people who have never played hockey, get them drunk, and have them go around fumbling on the field and they would probably score a lot of goals. A recruiter would watch this game and be like "Wow these two teams are incredible!! Look at the way they score all these goals!" And the recruiter would completely miss the fact that neither team is coordinated and both teams have zero defense. The other thing is this is a team game from the survivor side. If you do things to help your team win even if you end up dying then you should be rewarded for that because you are still helping your team "win". It's just such a nonsensical argument that you have to bend over backwards to try to make it fit this game.
After watching this stream I'm officially done with dead by daylight. It's so sad, I had so much fun playing killer and honestly that was the most fun aspect of the game for me but now I just can't. All of my friends from high school can vouch that DBD was literally my life back then, it was to the point that i went out and asked a friend to make me this custom DBD logo but now I can't even play a match and have fun unless I'm playing with a friend and even then survivor isn't as fun as killer.
From what they said about "I got 8 hooks but no kills, must be a loss" this shows me that they already did have a win condition. It never changed. Kills and escapes are the win condition. They simply didn't want to state it for reasons of (replayability???) I don't know.
My argument is that if my dumbass could come up with a better system than dbd than something is wrong.
And I can.
A ssbm system only works if the queues are not long for one side or the other anyway. During peak hours ssbm would not work even if it was "skill based" because the game throws any killer vs any survivor based on the imbalanced "role ratio"
I loved the point about there not being draws included. That's such a good point. Why aren't they considering 2 kills and 2 escapes as a draw. Why is it instead considered that the 2 that escaped were simply better. In this 1v4 game. Where the survivors work as a team…
How does 1v1v1v1v1 sponsor team attitude. Solo queue was bad enough before you actually got rewarded for leaving people on hooks smh.
Alright but for example yes, in normal sports it’s the end results that matters. But for example fantasy football your players are rewarded different points for individual skillful moves. The devs just don’t really understand and it sucks
Hey Dowsey I just watched this video where the guy interviewed someone who creates hacks in dbd and sells them he gave some pretty shocking insight on behavior lack of reaction. He also gave a list of streamers that they snipe and how the sniping works you jrm and ayrun were on the list and they leave a little description on every streamer thought it might interest you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jGUEuVuQGG8&t=593s
Killers just need to do bones it's that easy.
Patrick seems so stupid.
I got a lot of salty messages yesterday when I was 4K on basically every game. My response was that I was playing as the developer intended. Just ruthless face camping and tunneling with maybe 6 hooks in a game. I'm good at the game now. I wasn't skilled when I was getting 9 hooks and one kill. I'm glad the developers cleared that up for me.
Altruism is an indicator of low skill as well as running the Killer.
I agree with Patrick. It's not that skill doesn't matter. It's that you have to have a clear win definition. Which is exactly what he said but you all want to twist the words for video view clout.
If you were to die but the game boost your MMR because it decided you won based on skill. Imagine how frustrating that would be.
Dying but constantly going against harder killers because the MMR is deciding that you played skillfully.
Idiots…
I was very posetive to DbD up until Pinnhead NFT thing, that was the last cut of a thousands guts that shatterd my "illusion", i feel like dbd is a slowly sinking ship and as along as it barely stays aflote BHVR are content, they keep adding more and more stuff, faster then they can fix issuels that has been in the game to long, at least is what i understand from many diffrent creators, and with every addition the spaggeti code gets more and more tangled, i barely play anymore, the grind is getting larger and larger, they havent relly done anything substatial in years to combat that, other then the first bloodweb re-work and the addition of more then 2 perks ending up in the web at the same time and the shrine, idk my passion for the game is slowely bleeding out, yes i dont relly have that mutch playtime but i was following every update, watching streamers to know whats up and whats new, logging in to ptb to check stuff, but now, i barely watched any pinnhead, nemesis, artists, im slowely losing the passion, i dont care because it feels like the devs dont care, i know its a job for them, but they seem less intrested, maby its sticky icky sickness or something have changed in the core philosopy. idk, seems like Daylight is coming and thats when it will be Dead by Daylight. i hope im wrong, i hope everyone is wrong and all of the sudden everything is fine, but being a blizzard denyer for so many years, i see this happening in all of gaming, less passion, more "work" and money.
Sorry for this inconherant mess, if you made thru all of this shit, thanks for your time, and have a nice day <3.
I have to admit the Primus reference has me confused
Either they can’t be bothered or this is the one hill they’re willing to die on, Idk why they are so much about SBMM staying the way it is now, the way it is now is surely going to kill the game in the future and makes the game difficult to enjoy as one match we get noobs who don’t know how to play and if we win that match we then get ppl who are probably way higher skill, it’s difficult to be in a position where you can get fair games with killer and random teammates all being roughly equally skilled. The way most of my matches go is I’ll either get a high ranked killer that obliterates me and my ash rank solo queue teammates or I’ll get a baby killer with red rank meta build veteran survivors meaning we flawlessly escape
Until this game gets new devs it will continue to die
Honestly this mmr is terrible and him comparing dbd to hockey that’s just stupid and I quit playing dbd two months ago and honestly dbd died for me when this skill based match making was put in and the game just isn’t fun for me anymore
P.s this is just my opinion
Boons are difficult to take care of once set up and are easy to put back in place? It takes what, a second and a half, max to step on it and 25-30 seconds to replace it? It doesn't matter what the devs do, this community is always going to cry.
I don't know what the point of the Q & A was since all the answers were 'SOON' & lets not even get started on how smug & arrogant Patrick is…
11:10 so true
What blows my mind, is the last time I played DBD I did a test. I played 10 games of survivor, I either got tunneled before the last gen was done or died as the exit gates opened on 7/10 games. I was against Rank 1-2 killers every…single…game….the system doesn't work at all and I'm CONSTANTLY going against sweaty killers. Even when I play killer, I'm constantly against SWFs and sweaty players but never against half decent normal people. I want the older system back, it was more casual and more fun. DBD is stressful as fuck now.
Didn't the community ask for more accurate matchmaking? Now they want more casual match making? Confusing.
I hate the fact NO ONE
NO ONE is talking about COC being strong because it UNLOCKS SELF HEAING FOR WHOLE TEAM
imagine circle of healing just unlock self heal for the owner and efficiency for others
or just healing efficiency but not unlocking self heal
the perk will be utterly useless
When they say "skill" they literally just mean wins. MMR tracks whether you won or not, and escaping vs dying IS technically winning, even if within the context of the game someone's death may have carried the team to their win. I most of us agree that the in game "win" system is something many players largely ignore, because of whatever they consider a "real" win (which is often hooks/chases & gens, but not always). MMR tracks kills and escapes and completely ignores any potential skill on all sides, because it's not designed to track skill. The old system at least attempted to track nuance, and the fact that they reverted from that, to something that tracks wins alone, and called it "skill based match making", is totally ridiculous. It should've been obvious from the beginning how matchmaking has ended up. It's crazy how the developers seem to be the only people that think kills > hooks when it comes to skill. They care about the end result of sacrificing all the survivors more than entertaining the entity, or using your killer's power to its strengths, which I think has always been more indicative of skill. I still play however I want because playing to increase your MMR is a joke.
The devs didn’t do a good job so far
I've only ever hooked everyone twice then let them all go since SBMM came out. (I've now quit the game cause i've more important games to play) but it was fun getting the lowest of the low for survivors XD.
Everyone seems to be missing the point. If you were chased every game for 5 gens then yes your point is valid but that is not the case. If you achieve your goal whatever the circumstances might be your rank goes up, this means if you are really strong at managing your time and not so good at chase then sure you will do better in games you get less chased and the opposite is also true. What this means is that after a number of games your ranking starts averaging out which is perfect since then it reflects your skill, sure it won't say in what aspect of the game you are best at but you will have the correct matchmaking rank. This also matches with what they said about the system being able to rank players properly currently. It also matters little whether it is a 1v4 or a 5v5.
Now here is where they screwed up. They tried to evaluate survivor and killer the same, what I mean by this is the skill for a killer to get to say 2k MMR is nowhere near the skill required for a suvivor. So in reality 2k killer is not the same as 2k survivor except the system believes it is. Another thing BeHaviour said is that even if they could match MMR perfectly that is not practical due to Q times so they are forced to scramble the matchmaking.
To prove the point let's say you as survivor play 100 games vs 100 hour killers with the sole objective of escaping. You would destroy all the 100 hour survivors in score that tried doing the same and we are only counting escapes and disregarding all the nuance.
Now should the defined objective of the game be kills or if that is fun or not that is a different topic that I would consider more relevant than whether the skill rating works.
As another example take any game with a matchmaking system if you focus on the objective and on improving at reaching said objective your MMR goes up, if you focus on other things that even though can be good and help your team are not the main objective you will still improve and get better MMR but you will not get as much as you want.
Hockey is a symmetrical game just like counter strike or rainbow six siege, where the number of kills and team play doesn't matter so much as you win the game, BUT in an asymmetrical game of 1v4 that allows for multiple ways to play, you need to understand what people are doing in the game to determine their true skill. But no, a killer winning 8-chases with no kills is less skilled than face camping bubba with 1 kill.
I understand the killer shouldn't be expected to get the 12-hook and be punished by not doing so, but then the game promotes camping and tunneling more than ever and if they're going to nerf face camping killers will still be less encouraged to keep going for chases.
Behavior Interactive's Q&A inspired me to take up playing something else.
Comparing your shitty SBMM system to a pretty long established sport with even teams doing a clear goal. This is like saying Wayne Gretzky is equally as skilled as his whole hockey team because the team got a win, despite him scoring most if not all the goals.
You have to be kind of slow in the head to believe this system. He knows it, that is why he's reaching so hard to explain how not-fucking-stupid it is. 🙂
As a killer I don't want to get high MMR because then it'll be just sweaty games that I am forced to do things I don't want to do such as tunnel a player out of a game. I'd rather get 8 hooks, no kills, lots of BP and no MMR than play the way this MMR system wants me to for getting "higher rank".
Patrick shouldn't have a job. He blatantly ignores his community majority, openly mocks them, and fundamentally doesn't understand his own game and probably has never exposed himself to it for a significant period of time; which wouldn't be a problem if he listened to his community. If you want to balance things based on skill and you have none, you already have half the perspective, you know what is hard for you to do, now if you look at it simply when you suck escaping is a hard thing to do, due to the nuance of the game you are weak link due to your lack of skill and that makes it hard for you to personally feel like you won. However if you never saw the killer and you opened the exit gate and escaped after doing a couple gens and hiding – do you feel like you fundamentally improved as a player? Did you just get lucky? The same is true for killer, you might have a hard time getting a 4k because you aren't good, but if you open the exit gate and afk in the corner and all 4 survivors die while they flashlight click at you in the corner did that 4k fundamentally improve your skill as a player?
Conversely if you broke it down more and you actually got the perspective from players that the community recognizes as good, if you talked to Ayrun, Dowsey, or Cope they'd probably all have their own insights on what they think is skillful gameplay but even as an average survivor and a subpar killer I can firmly identify a few things. First as an Asymmetrical Game, DBD can be measured by an invisible Pressure Gauge. Survivors jobs are to relieve pressure while killers are intended to generate it. The first indicator of skill is to recognize the amount of pressure at any given time; for example at the start of the game when survivors are split on gens and the killer has yet to get a foothold into the game is the hardest point in the game for killer and the easiest point in the game for survivors. You can look through this as the opposite lens too, Killers start the game with a full pressure gauge and are struggling to relieve it before everything blows up at their feet, but i feel that analogy is more stressful.
So what can a killer do to gain pressure and what can a survivor do to relieve it. Killers can Regress generators, Injure Survivors, Slug (Leave survivors in the dying state), Hook Survivors, and Zone. Zoning refers to controlling a portion of the map – this can be used to protect a tight 3 gen, ensuring a survivor moves to the next hook stage, as well as a few other reasons that have merit; Totem Defense, Scourge Hook Proximity, Splitting a large map. Certain killers are better for certain things, Freddy is really good at regressing generators. Oni is really good at slugging, Bubba is really good at defending hooks, Hag is really good at defending a tight 3 gen, Legion is really good at injuring survivors. Survivors on the opposite side can complete Generators, Ensure that they hook trade before someone hits the next stage, heal, pick up slugged survivors quickly, Flashlight/Pallet Save, make sure that they recognize and break a tight 3 gen before the killer can defend it, and last but certainly not least, the most vital part of being a survivor is to take the most of the killers time as you can, if you can't loop then this could be as simple as sprint bursting to a corner, in which case you take the time the killer took to find you, the time it took for him to chase you to the corner, hook you, and make it all the way back to the next player which can be somewhere between 30 seconds to a minute. which could get your team a full reset or they could duo a gen out or something to that effect.
You can’t even give Patrick the hockey thing on the symmetrical side. A goaly never making a shot for a goal will be graded/judged differently than insert name of offensive role making a goal. Killer/surv are not just different sides but as Dowsey states they have different objectives….just like goalies and offensive players. My mans, Patrick, fucked up with his OWN example.
yet yall still playing this game? you know they dont give a shit bout yall but you still play. so why should they change their opinions or approach?
Tbh I feel like Patrick is kind of encouraging killers to tunnel Cuz 8 hook seems great to me tbh but you're not getting any better when u tunnel and you're not getting rewarded so……I don't understand Patrick's logic here its Ethier we tunnel for our 4k's or try hard our 4k's and no one wants to be sweaty because I defiantly don't .
as a new killer (cause i play survivor more) sbmm is so stupid I get so many good survivors cause i do well with rank 20 players so it's boosts me to 9 and rank 1 players
I think their MMR system is fine, killers shouldn't increase point in mmr if they didn't kill anyone, same as survivors shouldn't increase mmr if they die.
Honestly, the Dwight analogy hits home because almost every other match I play ends up being like that, FOLLOWED UP WITH GOD DAMN DEATH THREATS, cause you know it's my fault for dying even though I ran the killer for three gens, healed myself, did proper BT saves but when I get hooked for my first time I get face camped because none of the team mates want to help. Instead they t bag in the back corner while I die and they choose to note save a person even though they also had BT.
FUCK their current MMR/sbmm and fuck Patrick.
The hockey analogy went so far over your head lol
Why don't they just attach your MMR to blood points? As you pallet stun, blind, rescue, etc. You get more points individually, that way even if you died, but still carried by looping well, you still get a better total point score at the end. Also, this would address killer MMR too since they get points off hits, hooks, closing hatch, etc. It incetivizes trying to max out your efficiency to go for hero plays.
as a fellow canadian i will say this we arent all as dumb as patrick
In hockey if you carry your team and win you are also winning. In Dead By Daylight you can carry your team and cause the rest of your team to win/escape and yet you still lose even though your the only reason the rest of your team won makes no sense.
BHVR is like Blizzard. They have no idea how to balance their game.
who the fuck would want to play against a killer that slugs and camps all game because "killing" is their objective? Having hooks implemented would give the killer more of a reason to go in chases instead of camping and one hooking everyone
BHVR u should sell DBD to another dev. You are absolutely clueless
Dbd is a game like COD, if you win more often you go against stronger players…
For me as casual gamer dbd is good, but the Red ranks/ better players have to Deal with the matchmaking xD sorry
Easy solve:
Sbmm by hooks. 9 hooks or higher is a killer win and any amount of hooks lower than 4 is a loss. A kill instantly gives you all the hooks that person had remaining(if you kill a survivor off first hook it will count as 3 hooks)
Patrick has no idea what he is even saying, I think.
If there’s one thing i disagree about the vid it’s that DBD shouldn’t be competitive… it’s a competitive game whether you believe it or not. If you want to play the game to “relax” and you get upset for losing then you’re not really playing the game to relax, you’re playing to win.
What behavior needs to focus on is balance and game health.