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Is this video I explain why not only why the current MMR system in DBD is massively flawed but also why an MMR system in DBD is bad choice all around.
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Chapters:
00:00 Intro
01:08 SBMM Design Flaws
04:24 Win Condition
07:35 Self Evaluation
09:33 Game Balance
10:45 Conclusion
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What changes would you realistically make to SBMM, game balance, or DBD in general?
I really miss the old system, i hate the fact that a total gen jockey could be iri 1in this system. In Canadian philosophy, every victim deserves a trophy
MMR should be on a combination of point gained in a match. more specially for example survivor MMR should be based off objectives (gens and unhooks), chases (chase time length and how many objectives were done in said chase time length) and escaping (but with the twist of how many survivors escaped removing personal escape from the equation even if u die). for killers their MMR should be based off power used to gain downs and hits, hooks secured in a match and chases (survivor found to downed time/ratio). its like u said atm the current MMR only looks at escapes and kills which doesnt portray how the match actually went for the survivor or killer. this way everything is tracked and it would be shown so u can see what ur doing bad and what ur doing well.
surprised no one responded to the community manager then you should have made a game about chases not playing a killer or survivor but just acops and robber game and the decline of players says otherwise
Remember to dislike the game on Steam!
I 100% agree where you talk about variety > balance. We shouldn't strive for perfectly balanced matches in an asymmetric game where it is impossible to know the map/opponent(s)/perks/addons that you are up against before committing to your choices, it's simply not possible. Having games of varying success, without being forced to run the absolute meta 100% of the time is the key. Players don't want to feel forced to play a certain way, with only a limited selection of the 200 or so perks, in order to compete.
By no means am I saying "skill" should be discounted completely. There does need to be some form of consideration taken by the matchmaking system to ensure that newer players are not immediately matched up against extremely experienced players. "Skill" is just not the way to achieve this, as it is impossible to accurately account for in the game. As Patrick himself said, there are too many nuances to create a real skill-based matchmaking system, and I agree completely.
It is therefore my opinion that players should be matched primarily on connection quality and then playtime. I truly believe that this is the best way to go about it. You'll be matched against players of similar experience, but varying skill levels, creating a much more varied and overall fun experience for everybody.
I can't speak on game balance, or any of that because if you want my honest opinion I think they need to go back to the drawing board and rework every major mechanic that they have.
Although, the change I would make to SBMM is simply to remove it and revert to the old emblem system, simply because SBMM isn't real Skill Based Match Making, and all it does is further inflate the skill gap in the game. At least before I was not consistently matched with teams of great survivors. That is the huge issue for SBMM honestly, because even though I can at least consistently draw via great survivors, it takes so much effort that when the match is over I simply say to myself "Finally it is over, now I can take a break".
don't play then. simple as that
For the first time since the games launch – it has had five consecutive months of losing players. With it's previous record being four consecutive months of losing players back in 2017.
SBMM has made me quit DBD.
I stopped playing 3 months ago, little after the MMR system has been implemented.
It wasn't the reason that made me quit though, not directly.
It was my last semester at college and I didn't have time nor energy for this game.
I don't think I'm coming back to it anytime soon though
The emblem system was a better MMR check than escape-based matchmaking ever would be – the devs said that themselves the first time they tried EBMM and *rejected it*.
Just remove the escape/kill scoring as it stands, and swap in scoring based on emblem points.
Best solution to SBMM? Delete it. Then tweak the emblem system so it doesn't favor certain killers or make it so difficult for survivors to get higher grade emblems.
SBMM as is is just a no go, if you ask me. It would be better on the killer end if it at least included hook count alongside the kills and that would be a simple fix on the killer end.
But survivor? It's damn near impossible to make a system that truly evaluates skilled survivor play, and just counting escapes doesn't cut it.
BHVR devs: "Kills = good killer!"
Also BHVR devs: "4K at Bronze IV – no pip."
There's no way I can sweat against fucking IRIDESCENT SURVIVORS, kill 3 or 4 of them and get a fucking sarcastic 'Brutal Killer' posted on my forehead.
Getting pips on survivor is literally the easiest thing in the goddamn world – you can die and still pip all the way to Iri, but getting a 3-4K at Ash-Bronze and you still don't pip.
Please make it make sense, you brainlets at BHVR.
I was loving the game so much when pinhead was released. He was such a solid killer with great power and skill curve. I even bought the chatterer. However when SBMM dropped, I was no longer having fun in my games. So I quit. I miss those times!
HEY SOMEBODY TAKES THIS MAN'S TWITCH SHIRT COSMETICS ASAP!!!
So when sbmm came out I missed the first 2 weeks because I was moving house.
When I got on the game any killer I played that I had had for a long time I got 1k 2k that felt impossible. Every game was a struggle of pure stress.
In the old system I was purple 4 red 3 red 2 at the end of months.
In that first month of sbmm I tried plague who I had picked up before I moved but had barely played any games on.
Over 2 days of playing plague during that first month of sbmm I achieved red 3 grade, before my plague games played the same as my other killers. Another 2 days of playing nothing but stressful struggle games with the odd really easy 4k, I decided to stop playing, as matches didn't feel fun or fair, I either felt like I was guaranteed to lose or guaranteed to win with a really really rare chance of the match feeling fair like I could have won or the survivors could have won.
I left the game for a month. Every month since I have come in and played to get a feel if a patch has made games feel more fair and even time it has been hellish for me or I have felt it was hellish for the survivors with 1 or 2 games that felt fun and fair for both sides.
One of the main things I noticed with sbmm is every survivor won game they were generally running meta or were much higher skill level as they could win every loop easily. Gens would generally progress much faster then they did during grades and that hit validation was generally fucking my chases, with survivors getting multi validations a chase allowing for survivors to do gens unpressured. My ping is low my region is small so hit validation being so active is pure cancer as there is no need for the game to just give survivors free value. And a lot of the time I would be bm'd. I never quit out of matches during ranked. During sbmm my likely hood of just quitting a match because of how it is making me feel was high. For a period of time I would just load into a match and quit it to fuck with survivors who had bm'd me historically. Making them suffer longer ques of finding players who weren't me. With sbmm I haven't been playing friendly because my matches have been filled with survivors bm'ign and making me feel like shit, which means the same where I get survivors that are much lower skill then me I still play angry and those survivors suffer for it too.
The developers themselves said sbmm is good at predicting a match but bad at giving a fair match. Which is stupid. The point in replacing a match making system is for more fair game play not for better predictions of game because they are innately unbalanced matchs. Of course the system can predict the matches they are so one sided most of the time it would be stupid if the system couldn't predict an unbalance games outcome.
I disagree with your idea that the majority of players played less meta before sbmm was introduced, everyone wants to win the system simply is more proactive in lining up players who want to try as hard
However, your point about self evaluation was really well thought out, I can remember being proud about getting rank 1 before sbmm and having that same mindset, only now for players its doubly worse for the newer players who don't understand its more a representstion of how much you've played that rank split
If one side chooses to not sweat, then 1 bad apple will make them go back to meta, there is no community solution to this issue, remove sbmm
Good work choy, well put
2 simple changes I think would help for both sides:
1. Take hooks into account to better evaluate the match and promote killers to go for hooks more.
2. Count survivor escapes as a team rather than individually so even if that Claudette that hides all game escapes while you ran the killer, you get the credit for her escaping as well since you contributed.
If i burn out playing killer im just going to play basement bubba and basment trapper.
I think the only thing I could think of to "improve on MMR" would be to give players the choice to play without it.
Give us the option to play a casual mode with DbDs full randomness and no post game grading of any kind, everything is allowed and everyone goes against everyone.
For a competitive mode there could be fixed map seeds, a "ban phase" of some kind and a somewhat tournament styled set of rules.
Not only would this give BHVR a better insight into the competitive side of for honor by actually having win and ban rates from the competitive side of the playerbase, but it would also improve the player experience at least in a way that they know what they're singing up for.
Counterpoints: "there would still be tryhards in casual" sure but loosing in casual wouldn't mean anything. The only thing you gain are blood points. Other games like R6, Paladins, Apex or CS:GO also have casual queues where potential sweats could be and there it means absolutely nothing. Heck it's even frowned upon by everyone with comments like "imagine tryharding in casual"
"Splitting up the playerbase would make queue times worse" at this point I'm pretty confident that DbD has a big enough playerbase to survive being split in two. It's about to placed on steams platinum list of all times best selling games AND we have crossplay so we are way beyond the point of "small indie game". I would also accept a ~10 min queue time for ranked if it means I get matched with the right people.
"There is no reward for playing ranked" could literally be fixed by ranked rewards now giving auric cells or iridescent shards for ranked players. Grades could be awarded in both modes but ranked gets better stuff simple.
Just my thought process as a rather casual DbD player that also has been playing for a pretty long time. I just want to know what I'm up against so I don't pick Clown against a russian comp team or my full gen stalling Artist against a random group of friends playing for fun.
I remember before sbmm was implemented I used to play alot of killer on most days whenever survivor games got a bit too much, Even tho it was a longer wait time for me I still had loads of fun playing killers that I very much enjoyed, however since sbmm has been implemented I haven't touched killer at all which is really sad because the last time I tried to play killer I got a sweaty team and It wasn't very fun for me so I stopped playing killer altogether I really wish something was done about this system because I would at least like to play killer again without the worry of being body blocked by higher ranked survivors not that it's their fault because I understand they are just trying to win as am I but I'm months out of practice on killers I loved and enjoyed. I do think this needs to be addressed instead of the devs brushing it under the carpet like it doesn't matter. I only really ever play dbd now whenever there's an event on or just before a new chapter is released other than that I get burnt-out really easily and have to play something else . I wish the devs would open their eye's and see this is a problem but I don't think they ever will.
why make this game competitive? it doesn't seem like a competitive game to me,I have even played Friday the 13th and there was no rank system in that, so why put it in dbd? it is suppose to be a legit fun game full of horrors and scary ways the killer can get you. hopefully someday I can come back to this game myself but for now all i am really doing is just installing and uninstalling because I really only get on to use codes for blood points anymore. that is the gist of my game play now.
Nope. DBD was ruined a long time before MMR… and how do you take your 5k subscribers as "the Community"…how ridiculous!
Some things i agree, others i don't. You talk about a right or wrong way to play as killer. There is no rulebook, nor is there a right or wrong way to play.
Slugging, proxy camping and tunneling are the strongest ways to apply pressure as killer (yes they are not fun for survivors).
There are indeed playstyles, which are enjoyed more by both sides. I agree with you that bhvr should design the game around win conditions (like getting many hooks as killer or getting different things done as survivor rather then just escapes) that encourage a fun experience for both sides.
In my opinion, some perks like kindred or even bbq for example should be basekit: kindred would discourage facecamping, bbq can show the killer where to go away from the hook to another survivor to start a new chase, encouraging a fun playstyle.
If you check steamcharts for dbd, then it will show you that they nearly lost HALF its playerbase in almost 1 year. That should tell you something.
Just make useless perks crazy. Liek remember that time coup de grace had insane range on ptb. Just put that in, it would be so much fun and woudl actually be used
The SBMM doesn't even work IMO. I'm still finding survivor that are great at looping and in the time i down one, two gens are done. I have 150h~ and it's frustrating. Sometimes i find survivor that are "bad" (don't focuses on gen, kill themselves, hide behind a tree of one inche or enter in a locker in front of me) or are using non-meta perks and i kill them easly or i find survivors with meta perks, chase build, purple flashlight, tollbox, multiple CoH* so they have 48m for heal them self ecc…
And i'm always tempted to quit but i do not beacuse of the time punishment, so i chase them without any strategie and let them basically do all gens and i open the gates for them. Seriously, SBMM is so fucked up
*I said 48 metres because if you are in little map it can continue the radius and be 24m of one and 24 metres by the second one. Also i main legion and they noe hoe annoying that is (i don't think it needs a nerf or something, i'm just saying that's annoying)
Dude, the win condition is how many kills/escapes there is total at the end of the match. The devs said too that as of rn there's too many variables to have any other kind of goal post.
I want them to make mmr coexist with the old emblem system. I think if they’d find a middle ground between these two systems, DbD would become considerably better. But that involves a lot of math in their code and I don’t think they’ll ever do that. Or at least not right now.
8:10 – 8:49 you hit dbds biggest nail on the head, I use to have that mindset where reaching rank/grade 1 killer meant i was a god at the game and if I were to lose it was the game being “unbalanced”. Granted the game to this day is still a bit unbalanced but it’s unbalanced for both sides and isn’t as unbalanced as dbd in 2017 which was considered the dark age’s.