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In this video, I talk about the no perk experiment we conducted on my streams over the last few days. I have my own conclusions, but I’d also love to hear your thoughts and your own arguments about the strength of items and the disparity between Killers and Survivors.
Experiment data (scroll to the right): https://bit.ly/2zMWXqk
Watch live: https://www.twitch.tv/Otzdarva
Join our community: http://discord.gg/Otzdarva
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Maybe on higher ranks these things might be true, but in casual games the reality is different:
– No communication between survivors is standard, not the exception
– Survivors often have disconnects or simply leave (3 in 10 games at least 1 Survivor)
– Casual players do not have so many of the best items
– Compare a Doctor with the best items (complete chaos within few mins) or a Myers (instant kills -.-) with a Medkit….
So… the game isn't inherently survivor sided, but the balance of perks and items MAKE it survivor sided. That's really good to know tbh because that means the game isn't fundamentally broken, it just means there's some stuff that needs nerfing
Just played a game with those addons. I gotta say. I agree with you otz.
Killer without items: 70% winrate
SWF, Top 0.01% of players WITH ITEMS, sweating hard as fuck in comms: 80% winrate
YA CLEARLY ITEMS ARE BROKEN SWEATY SWF SHOULD ONLY HAVE 50% WINRATE SO THAT THE REST OF IS WHO DON'T HAVE 20,000 HOURS IN THE GAME AND SOLO QUEUE CAN HAVE A 5% WINRATE.
Bro imagine a game where playing with your friends is considered toxic, oh wait
So I'm confused. Your argument is items are too strong and you did an experiment with survivors with and without items and recorded this info. Sure, I can understand that, but then you say you did "the same thing for killer". From your info shown, you ONLY played killer with nothing. You didn't show any info of you using addons. This kind of renders the info useless because we don't have any info on how strong the best addons are for killers. For example, if the best addons increase the killer's win rate to a similar win rate that items do for survivors, then I don't see a reason to nerf items. Addons are the killer equivalent to items, so I feel like we're missing some important data here.
BHVR: We have heard you and we're nerfing cannibal.
i don’t think i have even played 100 matches of killer in general-
I mean that is the point of strong items to be strong and help.
Mmh… I think, personally, that a problem is the pace of the game? And how easy it is to leave one and re-que without seemingly any penalty. An example is how Gens are so easy to immediately pop when more than one survivor are doing it, especially since survivor mains are gonna be constantly hitting those great sc, and thats without taking items into account. At the same time, like you explained Otz, survivors ARE really fragile. And I think that comes from the fact that no matter what, a survivor can always die on the first down, which seems extremely unfair.
Doesn't matter if the other 3 survivors get the gens done and all escape, to the one survivor that got camped that was a loss and a shitty one, ya know? So I think if they can fix that the game will become way more fun.
Saying that perks are "busted" is a bit silly like yeah you win more often when you use all the tools the game gives you. That's how it works what would be the point of perks if not using them didn't make you win less
Nothing is really strong in solo que it’s a mess SWF if the problem
I think the items are okay as they are now.
Yes you use the best but how often do you see those in normal matches?
Unless its a full flaslight squad i mostly see yellow items or nothing.
So i see strong items more like purple or pink killer addons witch for me are just as rare
Judging by this video, it makes it hard to say this but the game is kinda balanced. Here's my reasoning:
Everybody gets 20k = draw
Killer wins at 20k w/1 kill
2 kill is above average
3/4 kills skilled
By those stats in video, you're encouraged to use rare add-ons against high skill. You have to prestige to get rarer items. By this reasoning I believe people asking for nerfs or buffs aren't making their survivors/killers 'prestige 3' and aren't using every tool in the game. Maybe Prestige needs a buff, adding more luck for better items than whatever % it has right now. Or make 'bloodlust' reach slightly faster (13 sec instead maybe ???)
its not really the items that are the problem, its swfs, they need to somehow nerf swfs in this game, why would bhvr nerf items? i myself only play soloq and even with the strongest maps and items i still struggle cuz of my teammates not knowing when to sit on a gen. and im really expierenced as surv, u know exactly what im talking about otz if u even read this. dont missguide bhvr to do dumb nerfs when its not even the big issue. yes sure items are strong, but does it really matter when u play with a strong swf? NOOOOOOO!!!!
Since I have to dump blood points into stuff I don't really want, I may as well use it. 🤷♀️
I think the idea of nerfing items is reasonable to a degree. I use items to yes, give me an advantage, because sometimes, based on perk builds for average/casual players, I or people I would come across or play often with need an item to build up on the thing they lack. Like say you run a support build of more focused on healing teammates and you are running solo so you have to rely on in the moment situations to help your teammates. I would run a toolbox so if need be I can focus on gens if my teammates are able to run the killer around without needing that much support. Or vice versa, one more focused on sabotaging or running around, so bringing a medkit to backup the weak spot is something that can be done. Granted, a lot of people do not do this, at least I would assume at higher ranks, but for the casuals that I personally played with often, that is what we did. Maybe something they would do but I feel may not entirely work were to be weakening the items the higher your rank, so there is more emphasis on usage of skill and possibly perks rather than the items, as they may provide a small boost the higher tier your skill of the team and killer are. Maybe just straight up limit some items, depending on how certain ones work, I do not know. This could just be one giant bad idea.
I don't use items I don't think there fun because wow what a fun match 3gens in 40 sek and the killer is camping the runner (me) at the end (and i play killer as much as survivor)
Hmm… I'm not so sure, about what I think about this experiment. I see the problem in items raising the pure numbers by such a great margin, but I don't know, what to make of it. You said, that the issue with items is, that it does not matter, how experienced or good you are, but what stuff you decide to bring before the match. Firstly you could say the same thing about perks: I would be very interested in seeing another experiment to compare the numbers with: No Perks, Meta Perks and Off Meta Perks in your group. I could imagine seeing a similar result there.
But the big question is: Is this really a bad thing? I don't quite think so! I think it should impact the game greatly, if you decide to bring a different build or item, because it brings more variation. People play this game for thousands of hours and I personally think, that it would get pretty boring very fast, if you could only alter the game you play by a small margin, bringing perks or items.
It's kinda weird when your survivor stats say in a team with "Items & No Items", your team has a 70% Win Rate with 2.8 escape average. But as killer without anything, you destroy 70% survivors, where it should have been like 30-50% because those surs must have perks equipped and perhaps items too. It's this contradiction that makes me really feel confused. Either as survivor or killer, your opponent's skill just doesnt match your (or your team) skill.
I would say the only way to make a more accurate stats is have you vs a same survivor team in each scenario to find out.
interesting, however its hard to say as this is in the top tier of play, what this means for me (silver 1 with 25 hours) could differ wildly
2:38 "of 50 dicks" 😆
I agree that some items are too strong, but I believe it's only medkits, however I see 2 problems with this experiment:
– I believe that playing without perks makes this test biased. Perks are a very strong addition and game should be balanced with them in mind. I am certain that if the experiment was conducted as "with perks w/o items vs with perks with items", the difference in win rate would be significantly smaller.
– Another issue I have is that you're advocating against items while incredibly strong add-ons persist to exist. I believe that nerfing items while such strong tools can be used against survivors is just unfair. Both sides have access to very strong tools that they can bring before the match even starts, giving themselves an unfair advantage. I don't personally like it, but that's just how it is. So unless items will be nerfed alongside lots of killer add-ons, which is probably not going to happen, as it requires tremendous amounts of work, I am advocating against nerfs. However, I have to agree that medkits are a bit too strong and should be brought down a notch.
I know I am a bit ambiguous as to what add-ons I mean, and what "bring medkits down a notch" means, but I hope the point gets across.
About the survivor stats, I feel like they should never play with comms, just to make it a bit more realistic to normal gameplay. This just shows how OP experienced swf with comms are, but not normal gameplay. I know they probably did it so it's more entertaining for them and the viewers on streams but still.
I feel like the difference between your 50 killer w no perks vs your 50 survivor with no perks is that you were in the same swf's. You build team work skills and comms that your average dbd game might not have, therefore you can capitalise on mistakes more on killer if people don't communicate. With survivors communication is huge and as you say in the video, the perk mind games are huge. I think if you did 50 killer games no perks vs 50 swf's at the same skill group as your mmr roughly, or even against your friends you played with +1 extra, the win % would go down.
items to have an impact because perks that doesnt work sure wont , cough mettle of man and flashbang
By the same logic though add ons should all be gone too. I think they just need to get rid of some of the better add ons for items. And maybe lock toolboxes for a while at start to avoid first gen in like 20 seconds.