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Today on a Dead by Daylight Stream, the Lead Game Designer discussed how DBD MMR functions and it…didnt go well…
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/kb/articles/297
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About Me!
My name is Dyllon! I have played Dead By Daylight for about 1.5 years now strictly on my Twitch page. After being asked time and time again about how to get into the game, I decided to try my hand at making guides to help players.
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Keywords: Dbd, dead by daylight tips, dbd tips, dead by daylight mobile, dead by daylight new killer, dbd killer tips, dead by daylight killer tips, dbd new killer, dbd update 5.3.0 today, mikaeal reid, boon totems, boon: healing circle, boon: shadowstep, boon shadowstep, dbd mmr, mmr, dbd sbmm bad, dead by daylight mmr, dead by daylight mmr bad,
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I think that the concept of trying to pair people against folks who they have a reasonable chance of having a solid game against, where winning is a possibility and learning from a loss is within reach, is overall a healthy change/addition to the game. I don't know yet if an MMR/SBMM system is the right way to implement that concept into dbd, but considering it's only been enabled for about 3.5 weeks now, I believe it's at minimum not operating any worse than Ranks did.
In the first couple of weeks after the 13th I (As a pretty low MMR player) consistently had some of the best games I've ever had, where losses were fun learning experiences and I didn't feel completely out of my depth. Matches have been worse this past week, but my guess on that is the good players finished their tome challenges, got back to Iri I on one side and either stopped playing until next reset or switched to the other side, or simply upped their MMR and disappeared out of my bracket.
One of the secondary issues with any system that tries to match players up "fairly" is that dbd's userbase is relatively small. For example, rather than casual and ranked modes, which I agree would be a terrible idea for various reasons, the idea of locking your perk & item choices in before queuing and letting dbd decide how to match you up based on how powerful ("sweaty" to use a phrase) your build is seems like it would achieve the same end result without actually splitting up the queues. But at the same time, this could elongate queues if the game has to, for example, wait for four survivors and one killer to all have similarly weighted builds and be of similar SBMM rating.
One obvious way of solving the userbase issue is to bring more people into the game. One way of bringing more people into the game is to make the game feel more welcoming to new players without diluting the game for experienced players. So there's something of a chicken and egg in making a system to make the game feel more fair and waiting for the playerbase to expand before iterating on that system to improve it. Or even just letting said system run for 2-3 months (rather than a few weeks) before making adjustments to it, whether or not it helps with new user retention.
I ultimately think that SBMM and Grades fixed a lot of issues, as mentioned in the video, such as emblems and pip bugs under the old Ranked system. If SBMM and Grades simplified those systems "under the hood" (which it seems like it has from the outside at least) then that's ultimately good for reducing bugs and creating a better platform to build off in the future.
He did specify that how much you drop was a lot more nuance to it. He used very over simplified example I feel there is more too it…I dunno maybe its just me…
Survivors should be marked for loss of a teammate because its a 4v1 so it should be a tally system or something like that ive been left so many times on hook after 4 gens pop ive played as a killer and seen the others not even try to get them off the hook and thats b.s. on both sides i dont like it even when i play killer i love the chase cant help it
I don't find it an issue. Just playing for fun
I knew it was never based on skill. It would be too hard to implement every single variable and weigh it out and apply it without the game crashing. Now we have a system that rewards leaving teammates to die on hooks to escape and killers who face camp tunnel and slug to get 4ks.
Great video. Kinda wish i didnt know that dying is a loss and surviving is a win because now ill just get more upset when im tunneled right away. Makes alot of sense though. I was wondering why my teamates have been so awful in solo-que and its because my teamates are so bad in solo-que. Bad teamates = me dying on first hook or getting unhooked unsafely and going down right away causing me to die and then get placed with even worse teamates.
My issue with the MMR is that I cannot have fun. Maybe I wanted to meme around with Killer or Survivor with these builds that content creators like yourself make. All these sweaty players lately along with the longer queue times of Killer and sometimes survivor just makes me feel like I cannot play creatively. I don’t get why there is a need for MMR if most of the people that get this game for the promotion of these famous licenses and be disappointed because of their first game is against a CoconutRTS Huntress (no offense Coconut).
I much prefer approaching it from the emblem system. It gives something else to work towards more so than just surviving and escaping. But I also have only been playing this game for less than a year so I don’t really know if I have a full opinion. That’s just where I see it right now.
The other issue is the ranks arent balenced im the equivalent if what was rank 12 i getting constant equivalent of rank 1 killers and far as teamates going im getting grey ranks in btb games
As a player who is allergic to meta perks on survivors and almost never uses them, and goes into trials without items most of the time, it's very discouraging to realize that from the point of view of SBMM, I'm just needlessly hindering myself in the trial, and since there is no nuance it the system I should chose the same, overused build that so many people are using. I think there was many positive things in that livestream, but I can't get over how joyfully Patrick admitted, that skill based match making.. doesn't take your skill into consideration cause it's just too complex.. After year of testing this is what they come up with 😐 fortunately I'm looking forward to mid chapter patch casue this patch is a step in the right direction and shows that they can make good changes.
Thank you for saying this. My honest opinion is that the community will never be happy with match making. There will always be something thats wrong with it. I will get hate for this but I thinl sbmm is better than the old mmr
I was excited when SBMM was announced but now that I know it relies solely on kills / escapes I'm disappointed.
This REALLY instead encourages playstyles the community hate, tunneling / camping on killers, selfish plays on the survivor side.
What if MMR was gained based on your total points that match (E.g Less than 10K lose MMR, 15K maintain MMR, 23K gain MMR), and something similar to the old Emblem system BUT there's no cap on points per category. This means if you looped most game and died, you can still maintain MMR by earning enough points from 1 / 2 categories alone, and someone who did nothing and escaped will lose MMR for not earning enough points in any category.
Likewise a tunneler who just interacts with 1 survivor the whole match and maybe uses NOED to secure an extra kill in EGC will lose MMR, but a killer who hooked everyone, interrupted gen progress / healing etc can still gain or maintain MMR even if there were escapes.
The whole scoring / point award system will have to be reworked (E.g looping points > alturism points > gen repair points) but BHVR should have expected implementing SBMM into an asymmetrical game will be very complicated (as opposed to them trying to simplify it rn)
As for my experience with SBMM so far, it's a mixed bag. I'm not a high MMR killer so I don't think I'm locked in that sweaty MMR cap yet(Rank 5 is the highest I ever got to per the old system) so matches have actually been less stressful for me. If I 'win' a lot I do get put against the 'pros' but if I lose badly my next few matches will be back to equally skilled survivors, or babies (and if it's babies that means my MMR goes up again, so then it's a cycle of 1 or 2 hard matches, then easy ones)
As a survivor I'd like to think I'm high MMR, and I see the same Rank 1 killers I went up against frequently when I was Rank 1 back in the old system (Southeast Asian servers are much smaller so you see the same players very often), same sweaty matches. People say there's more camping / tunneling since SBMM, but in my view killers camp and tunnel at all skill levels so there's really not much difference.
The silver lining to SBMM so far is not being able to lose your highest Grade anymore. After securing Iri 1 for the month I'm not so upset at being tunneled out first, and more willing to bring non-meta builds. I noticed teammates that are also at Iri 1 in solo queue have more variety of perks as well, and are more willing to take hits for you, block hooks, stay around to try to cleanse NOED and do a last ditch save ETC. So at least as a solo queue Survivor I am having more fun in my matches.
People who want the game to go back to the old Ranking system are nuts. It wasn't good, SBMM isn't good either, but it's just the first step and I'm sure it will go through many more changes. People just need to give the devs time. All the changes in the recent patch notes have been mostly great and show they really do listen to the community (just slow to implement), so I have faith!
(Also realized after writing this it got too long, sorry I just love DBD a lot ;u;)
im literally an ash 2 Huntress yesterday met 3 red ranks and 1 brown rank Was very sweaty
I agree with everything you displayed in this video except that joke of a chin beard
I prefer a stealth approach to the game. I'm not that great at looping, so I prefer not to be seen. I'll hide on the other side of the gen while the killer is kicking it. I'll hide in the tall grass. I bring Iron Will so I don't cry. I've gotten generally really good at not being seen. I'm still working gens, making saves, etc, so not being a potato in the corner while everyone else does the work. Does that make me good by MMR standards or bad? You're definitely right that there are a lot of variables to consider. If I run a new character and I don't have my preferred perks, that makes me weaker, but MMR wouldn't care.
I still pip up even if I don't escape
Now I agree that the current matchmaking system isn't nuanced enough, this is a game with a lot of factors that go into whether you "win" or "lose". However my experience with the new system has been so much better, before this I would get the odd great game amongst a lot of average or shitty ones, now most of my games are fun and feel more balanced, I get the odd bad match or bad teammate that just immerses and doesn't touch gens, but the difference now is that the rest of my team is decent and can make up for that. I dunno, maybe it's me just wanting it to be better or something but I'm having way more fun now than I was before.
That being said I LOVE the new rank system, the fact that you can't derank makes it so much more chill and means that when I have a bad match it doesn't really bother me. The only thing I would like is if they brought back the fact that you can't see rank post game, cause I see a lot of people blaming rank for why they lost when rank is even less meaningful than before.
I feel that on the survivor's side, any interactions should affect survivor's mmr so for example, a survivor gets chased, cleansing a hex totem, doing a gen, unhooking someone all these actions gains mmr however someone who just crouches and has 0 interaction in the games would lose so the survivor that has not been contributing to the team would be losing mmr thus putting them into a way lower mmr to heavily punish survivors for hiding and baiting their teammates to die so that they can get hatch etc etc. Another cool idea could be that for each survivor dead, a little mmr would be deducted from each survivor.
For killer's side, I feel how fast they end chases and how many hook stages should be a bigger key factor than how many kills they get. I don't believe a killer who just camps or tunnels with lets say 2 actual hooks to get 2 kills with the survivor leaving them on death on first hook should gain more mmr than a killer who has 8 actual hooks and 0 kills. Actions like standing close to hook, immediately going for the unhook person should lose them mmr as I feel why killer tunnel/camp could be that they want to win and 4k but cant effectively pressure the survivor so that have to resort to these actions. And this shows that they are not suited for the respective mmr that they are allocated and their mmr should be lowered to vs easier survivors, from there on they can slowly build the foundation and get stronger.
Hope this doesn't come out as offensive but I dont think perks, items, add-ons should affect the mmr as u mentioned. My reason would be that if a strong survivor knowing that could potentially bring weakest perks on the survivor side to intentionally bring the mmr down and loop the killers. And items could be picked up from chest anyways. As for offerings, I can agree with u that map offerings do affect the outcome of a specific game so offerings could be potentially affect the mmr.
By the way, excellent content Dyllon!
They already have tracking on a lot of the game for the dailies and rifts. Why can't some of those be used as a determination on who is skilled and who isn't?
It’s not that the lead game devs don’t care, it’s just that they have seen the issue presented by the “sbmm” that they themselves have implemented, and still have decided to do the wrong thing with the direction they took, and that to me is really shady, lazy , and a scummy design philosophy to have in a RNG heavy game
You’re making it more complex than it needs to be: you claim that there are too many nuances to account for to make a skill-based system but at least trying to do that is better than giving up and only taking in one factor. This system is far more broken than the last, no doubt.
This is probably me thinking about it too simply, but….what if they just stopped calling it "skill-based" matchmaking?
It's win-based matchmaking. Or results-based matchmaking. It's not really skill-based. I know they call it that because it's an industry term that's existed for a while, but I think that piece of it is really affecting people's perceptions of their skill compared to that of other players in a potentially unhealthy way.
There should be a way the game recognizes slugging, like if 3 teammates are down on the floor at the same time, it’s a point reduction for the killer and then no point reduction for the survivors, because games aren’t fair when you slug at 4 gens or 3 gens, because then the tasks can’t get done. you can’t run a killer when you’re on the floor playing hot potato with one survivor picking you up, then they getting downed and you running the killer and picking up another person and the circle continues. the game should be able to recognize that the way it used to recognize if you have a good chase or you do gens and everything, i don’t know if this is possible because i’m in no way a game developer, or someone who has touched in the realm of dealing with this mmr and figuring out a way to make it fair, but it’s just an idea.
They should add unranked and ranked mode than people know what there getting into every match
2:17 Says the devs care
15 seconds later: explains how the devs ignored all the feedback and criticism from the community.
the system should take into account chase time. In this it should calibrate pallet stuns as a form of bonus points for it. The Generator progress per-player should be accounted. Exit Gate should be calibrated as bonus points.
That is how it should work. Then work on balance for perks.
Also this is just an idea for survivors mmr
the system should take into account chase time. In this it should calibrate pallet stuns as a form of bonus points for it. The Generator progress per-player should be accounted. Exit Gate should be calibrated as bonus points.
That is how it should work. Then work on balance for perks.
Also this is just an idea for survivors mmr
the system should take into account chase time. In this it should calibrate pallet stuns as a form of bonus points for it. The Generator progress per-player should be accounted. Exit Gate should be calibrated as bonus points.
That is how it should work. Then work on balance for perks.
Also this is just an idea for survivors mmr
i cant get into a killer game only a survivor
"care" to accomplish. They dont want to try. I've heard many people purpose better mmr systems. I think that its less they dont care and more likely they are complacent and lazy
You do know the old system doesn't work either 😏 people have only been saying that for 5 years.
I was usually a rank 14 or lower mainly due to time being my biggest enemy. But this new ranking system is hateful. I'm a IV and I immediately get paired up with 2 or more "red ranked 1 players." Haven't really had the best time playing ever since this update.
A SBMM/MMR-based system will never work in the context of this game. Never and not under any circumstances. DbD is an unbalanced, uncompetitive mess at its core. And don't get me wrong, it's an addictive mess but still – it's a mess, let's be real here. How do you determine "skill" in a game with that much rng (what kind tiles spawns where and in what order, pallets, spawn points of survivors/killer/totems, …) and that many balancing issues (solo versus SWF, perk synergies alongside survivors, perk synergies with killer powers, maps where style goes over substance by a lot, …)? That's right – it's just impossible. That's why SBMM was a mistake, even one as bare-bones as this.
I was considering this some more. So MMR basically says, if I get killed every match, then my MMR goes down. That seems ripe for abuse.
People naturally will be competitive when given the chance: it's human nature. You can't have a game be casual yet also have the room for the realm of fair vs. unfair that competitive play demands.
Fair vs unfair, balanced vs. unbalanced doesn't matter in a casual game. But human beings will always compete in videogames where you have two sides that want to "win". That's why people want to know what a win condition means in DBD.
This is why games have RANKED and UNRANKED modes which DBD needs to implement. You separate out those that don't give a fuck about being in a match with similarly skilled players and anything goes – like quickplay in Overwatch. Ranked in overwatch has an MMR system or SR system where you are matched with a team of players relatively close to your team's skill. Is it perfect? No, But it's pretty good and close to what you should expect to go up against.
DBD needs this for the people who want to have a serious match against serious players. This is the problem – hardcore players and casual players in the same content is a disaster waiting to happen. In FFXIV online, this is why Dungeons are the most hotly contested and complained about experience: hardcore players want casuals to play their class decently, paint huffing, glue eating casuals who have no idea what their kit does hold everyone back and get mad that people are trying to tell them how to play better to get the instance over.
This is why there needs to be Casual content vs Hardcore mode/content. You therefore SELECT which you want and aren't FORCED to play with people who have VERY DIFFERENT GOALS for their matches.
This is why it's acceptable to kick/remove people from Savage mode in FFXIV online: they signed up for content they have NO BUSINESS DOING. This is also why it's completely okay to get banned for flaming someone in a dungeon: you SIGNED UP for the more casual activity, you therefore can't really require them to play extremely well.
There are boundaries and expectations. This is what keeps things healthy and civil.
The first bit of my match I spend trying to determine the survivors skill so I don’t just crush new players who got the game and don’t know how to loop like before all my games where against people so much better then me now it’s such a mixed bag idk what to do so I’ve just been playing different killers in wacky ways to give people a better chance like sure I get one or two red ranks but that doesn’t mean anything anymore I’ve had amazingly thought games and their rank didn’t reflect their skill at all like a silver faking windows wining 50/50s knowing not to stand to close to specific spots that’s not silver play at all but at lest I’m not getting destroyed but 4K hour swfs anymore I guess