Read more Dead by Daylight ➜ https://deadbydaylight.mgn.gg
tl;dr its not about what we can do to stop camping in game, its making it not the correct thing to do to begin wtih.
http://www.twitch.tv/ScottJund
source
Read more Dead by Daylight ➜ https://deadbydaylight.mgn.gg
tl;dr its not about what we can do to stop camping in game, its making it not the correct thing to do to begin wtih.
http://www.twitch.tv/ScottJund
source
Camp: get 2K, don't camp: get 0K. Some matches where you know you're outskilled by the entire enemy team, it's a real temptation to just do the strategy that is guaranteed to work rather than risk it and all get yourself further humiliated by t-baggers at the exit gates. I usually go for the latter anyway because I would prefer for my MMR to go down when I get stomped, but you can understand why people do.
I don't think you need to penalise killer you need an incentive to go after other people and move around
That's a point of view that I agree far more than otz's on this stake. Adding power denying when the killer is nearby a hook sounds terrible, the simple idea of not being able to use Billy's chainsaw nearby a hook or being overheated makes me shiver of pain
Why not add an intractable item to survivors to cause a "pyramid head cage" for the hooked? They spend time finding it, using it removes camp immediately, and makes it a strategical new objective.
I noticed that too, I was using legion and all I did in a match was use feral frenzy without hooking anybody or downing them the game still gave me a high score than anybody in that game and I was like WTF 🤷♂️ ok then 😆 lol
so you think a point system would stop it? i dont think anybody really cares about that though
i believe most people consider kills all that matter so a camper doesnt care if he gets oh penalty points because he was to close to the hook he only cares that he has killed 2-3 survivors because thats what you get guaranteed for camping
really the only way to fix it would be to increase the hook time, to maybe 3 minutes instead of 2 as that would give enough time to do gens before the guy dies but that doesnt seem like a fun way of going about it
could make it so if you are near a hook it takes longer for the survivor on hook to die, but that again doesnt stop a bubba from sitting there because you arent able to unhook in front of a bubba and even if you do you both go down
but i really dont see how a point system such as emblems which nobody cared about when it existed would matter
i literally had a player just like 3 months ago say he had -like 40 something points for staying on hooks but was still iri on that emblem and either way said he didnt care he got his 3k
Bro
16 meters no chases= double time on hook
17-32 m = regular hook time
33+= dying faster on hook
fixed the camping issue in 10 seconds
you can also change the hook UI for all of the players including killers to know wtf is going on
I feel like it would be too hard to implement a system where the game punishes you for positioning and camping. Bp dont matter and i don't think the killers really care about win/loss when camping. If you loop too well or taunt too much expect to get camped/tunneled. Imo if a killer is camping it should only work for 1 health state. Maybe something like if they camp too long any survivor going for the save gets a free stack of endurance or if theyy camp for a health state the person who gets camped teleports to a different hook and it doesnt show the killer where. Maybe even if they get camped tp then and give them a free stack of endurance until they get hit for the rest of the trial. No clue how balanced this would be for either side but losing and winning wont change a persons mind on camping imo.
Although this will gut the people that are camping for the win but this doesn't resolve the issue that when camping do happen its not fun for the receiving end.
It really is straightforward and as a killer main myself it's harsh, but if the killer is within X distance of a hooked survivor (16m, 18m whatever) the hook timer freezes. Proximity to hook for no other benefit (chasing a second survivor around hook or w/e) would mean throwing the game. Survivors could finish all gens and 99 doors and then come for the save. It would make hard camping a gauranteed loss. No middle ground. I don't know if this would be a good change, probably not, but it would resolve the question.
Idk about this camping is fun let us camp bring perks that force us to play but stop attacking us for playing the way we want
Bully squads are like camping the killer is having a bad time and they are clicking and tbagging and doing what ever they want everyone wants to attack killer and forgets a lot of people camp and stopped feeling bad for camping because of survivors
No matter what you do there are going to be people who camp you are sometimes supposed to camp man if I don’t see anyone and no notifications are around I’m not gonna leave the hook looking for someone only for a gen to pop the unhook happen and me be angry because it IS NOT FUN TO BE FORCED TO PLAY BY YOUR SURVIVORS FUCKING RULE BOOK
I've been saying this for years since Tru3 starts rambling with his "HOOK OVER KILL" argument. You can't stop or change how people play the game if nothing is done on the base mechanic. If they want to do it, they WILL do it, doesn't matter if it'd cost their possibilities to win.
All of that is overkill. Literally stop the timer on the hook when the killer is within heartbeat radius. that simple
Scott you are wrong because nobody gives a shit about emblems not before mmr or after it.
No offense but I prestige my account one time and at that point I don't really care for emblems nor ranks. I play killer just to kill. I don't really camp because the killers I use don't really excel in that category and I'll really end up losing even more but If i already hooked you and find you or just outta nowhere run into you or other survivors unhooked you seconds before I leave I'm not going to ignore you. You can blame that on your teammates. Theres literally a time meter to rescue someone. It doesn't have to be right then and there.
OK, you want to remove tunneling, why aren't we talking about the deletetion of the hit and run play style? In about 70% of my killer matches survivors heal in less than 10 seconds, 85% of matches have 1or 2 boon totems active and I don't have the leisurely time to snuff them out Knowing that it will just go back up. What about deadhard, even nerfed it works as a free health's tate that gives you distance, the higher you go in mmr the more consistent they've become at last second dead hards, and also there are the auto deadhard cheats that seem quite common. How about perk and item stacking surely having a team of 4people stacking the op stuff is toxic and insentives bad play?
I think most killer players started trying to chase everyone and hook everyone, but you quickly found out that swfs are op and you got 0 counterplay. You got in matches early where 2 or 3people could hard loop you with their infinite and seemingly perfect pallet placements where you get vacuum stunned even when you aren't that close. You hear 2 or 3 gen pops in the first 2 mins and by the time you get one hook everything is done. So what is the most common advice " get the weak link". Literally your only counterplay is to try to tunnel the weakest player out so it's a 3 vs 1and if you got enough gens to work with, now you can pressure the other 3players. If you want to address tunneling and toxic killer gameplay it has to start from the toxic survivor gameplay.
First easy fix, make clicking suck out your battery life. Every 2 click is an entire stun off your battery so you click a few times and you've wasted your item. Second easy fix, don't allow swf team to have the same perk. So you only get 1dh 1off the record and etc. Make snuffing out boons break the totem. Fix the 100 toxic shit killers have to deal with that force them to tunnel (not camp. That's just lazy gameplay but 8/10 times comes from a tilt thing where you got bullied by swfs x times in a row) and maybe we get to a better place.
I've had the exact same opinion since they implemented the MMR system: refine the emblems a bit more since they already adjusted for camping and thus making the win condition for both sides to, well, participate more in the game rather than "rush gens / tunnel-camp" due to escape/kills being the only thing to matter.
Past that, maybe associate some MMR points to each emblem color and go from there. Could have been interesting to see something like that during the MMR testing period.
Another huge issue is the fact that if a killer camp/tunnels a survivor out of the game…that survivor can depip because of that. But the killer gets points for the hooks/kill still, resulting in pipping. It’s ridiculous
It's pretty simple, make monstrous shrine basekit and increase the hook time
I think the thing nobody really wants to address here is that the reason camping in DBD is so common is, ultimately, a problem of the game's core mechanics kind of sucking ass. It doesn't matter how much you have the game tell the killer that they're losing if they're camping people. The fact of the matter is that it's still securing kills, which is clearly the only thing a killer who camps actually cares about. Simply put, they don't care if they see the words "merciless killer" or "entity displeased." They care about seeing the little skull pop up where someone's portrait used to be.
If you want to actually fix the issue of camping, simply making it harder to "win" while camping isn't enough. The underlying mechanics that allow a killer to stand in front of a hook and completely shut down any attempt to unhook are what need to be addressed. And that's an extremely tall order that I can't expect BHVR to ever address, because that would require taking a long look at hooks as a system and saying "most of this needs to go."
I also disagree with the point that the game would be significantly improved if there were ways that the game could internally define particularly active matches that only get one kill as wins. Once again, the problem is that most killer players only care about how many kills they're securing. Whatever the game tells them about how well they did on the results screen is irrelevant to that.
OK not only we need to apply scott's idea of point refinement.
But here's what I think would solve the problem indefinitely.
If the killer is within 6 meters of a hooked survivor and not in a chase, the entity will pause the timer on the hooked survivor until the killer decides to go away.
If the survivors are orbiting around the hook like flies and try to prematurely get the insta save, then the hook stage goes down as usual and the survivors are punished instead for trying to get the unhook in the killer's face.
(combined with scott's ideas, not only will you not gain any gameplay advantage by camping, you'll also loose all the points you gained catching that survivor on the hook.)
And an audio que that says "that's not cool dawg"
They should give survivors a shotgun and let them blast the killer to smithereens
Camping in this game gives you at the bare minimum a 2k, unless you suck. Upwards of a win at max potential. There's hardly any downside to it and the devs don't do anything to change it. We need to shift towards a shared hook system where there are 4 global hooks and 2 individual hooks. This way camping someone out would take 4 extra hook timers to get one kill. Tunneling would also suffer in that it wouldn't really get you an early 3v1 by killing someone early. This change alone would make both virtually irrelevant while maintaining the core balance and not nerfing killers who don't play this way at all.
Slightly different take. What about making it that Emblems gives you Bloodpoints instead of specific actions in game. Ofcourse they would have to be remade for that because of different killers.
I've been saying since MMR was introduced, that because BHVR basically says "Kills = skill" people just take the easy route. Previously, camping was a really bad idea in higher ranks if you wanted to reach Iri 1.
Personally I disagree with you that the sadistic people are a minority, I don't think they are a majority either – but I do believe that most people who camp especially DO have some sort of sadistic enjoyment from ruining that particular person's game and maybe even being seen as an asshole, like people who actually care about others wouldn't just camp because they think it's a nice in between way to be rewarded .. I can't imagine most campers apologizing to the person being camped while they camp, they're probably laughing while they do it or just don't care.
So there is some sadistic part of it, even if it's not as intense as other's.
Anyways, to me the solution to this is what otz recommended
BUT also with some killers buffs that incentivize going for different survivors, examples are a grim embrace buff to only need 3 tokens instead of 4 – BBQ and chilli giving 10% extra BPs for every new hooked survivor – Make your choice showing the rescuers aura for 5 secs.
And also … Oh wait, that's it? There's a few more but the point is there aren't many perks or mechanics in the game that encourage leaving the hook – sometimes as killer you don't have enough time to go searching around the map for a new survivor to chase, especially when they decide to hide.
So a nice basekit mechanic would be that after hooking a survivor the game shows a killer instinct in a general area where survivors are so the killer can quickly leave the hook to start another chase.
It wouldn't be as precise as BBQ for example but the idea would be for killers to always want to find another chase instead of getting lazy or feeling pressured to camp because they can't find anyone quickly.
However you would need to nerf nurse, blight etc so this wouldn't get out of hand
My problem with MOST peoples solution to camping is that it punishes killers in endgame scenarios where you didn't tunnel people and have someone on the hook and say rest are on death hook (why punish the no tunnel killer?) there is nowhere else he should be. As well as scenarios where someone is looping near the hooked person or the killer LITERALLY SEES SOMEONE GOING FOR THE UNHOOK and so they follow them.
Things that punish the killer for camping when they aren't camping just causes MAJOR frustration
The game's core is the problem, not the action.
If survivors won as a team, there wouldn't be a problem, but they don't. The game isn't designed as a 1v4, it's designed as a 1v1+1+1+1 for some godforsaken reason.
comp is for a reason, and we can excel it any many ways as meta exist, but if dbd isn't going to make a separate gamemode (not that they should) then they need to incentivize playing in the most entertaining way as a killer. I never feel the need to comment on any of these videos , but you make such a good point, and one that I value everyday when I play this game. However you spin it, asymmetrical games will always share this. It's in it's nature unfortunately. Balance exist, but only in consideration to your agenda.
More times than not it's the survivors putting themselves in a position to be tunneled or camped by improperly unhooking
penalizing the killer's meta scoring won't do anything, you have to compensate the victim survivor by reviving them or giving them an extra hook state like people thought old DS was. "hurr entitled survivor-" -And if all the gens get done in under 5 minutes add a secondary objective
I often just see people camping to be toxic
You can tell that when they wrote the entity's lore that they wanted the win conditions to be based around fun gameplay. The entity likes there to be hope and agony in the trial to be most satisfied. If they double down on this then it would look something like what Scott is talking about.
One of the best takes on countering the core issues of camping and tunnelling yet. Camping and tunneling is, at its core, a human dynamics problem. Most who camp and tunnel want to win without it being a sweaty match and use as little skill as possible. Don't give me the crap of "we just want to win by doing the objective (like survivors with gens) as fast as possible so why not tunnel one player out at five gens??". Ironically, this proves my point, you are trying to win the match without sweating and with as little skill as possible. It takes effort to pressure gens, get multiple hooks on all survivors leading to a 4K when you can tunnel one player out and the rest are left with an almost impossible mission to complete. I play both sides and know the sweat you feel when you go against a 4-man SWF however, those types of games are maybe 2 out of every 10 matches for me. I don t use those types of games as an excuse to camp and tunnel in every match.
If the game were to disincentivize this practice to a point that it makes a killer who camps, and tunnels miserably lose the match, most (not all) killer mains would now actually play the game in a way that is fun for everyone. I could care less if I win a match at all as a survivor, I just want to have fun and not last 2 mins in the game because I was first spotted by a camping Bubba who sits by me on the hook for the next min and a half chain sawing. However, those sadistic people do exist and there is nothing anyone can do about that.
Isn't BHVR's idea of a 2K considered a win?
Or are we talking neutral pip game? Cuz you don't need to even kill anyone to get a neutral pip.
This is a bad take from you, dude. Instead of penalizing killers for playing a certain way, maybe REWARD them for playing for hooks. Same goes for survivors, dude… You're not rewarded for playing skillfully as survivor, you're rewarded for escaping. And by REWARD I mean a win condition, not some stupid ass BP bonuses. If skillful play were incentivized FOR BOTH SIDES, it would fix this issue. Nerfing more shit isn't the solution.
For me I never care about a killer camping as long as it isn't a Leatherface. The simple fact that Leatherface can one shot multiple people at once and they always camp right bloody there makes it just fully dependent on the Leatherface screwing up majorly for you to get the save. To me it makes it zero fun as it's just down to dumb luck with them messing up. Every other killer you can make a play or something to get the save. I've never understood survivors getting pissed because an artist or wraith or anyone but Leatherface is being campy.
To me the simplest way to neuter campers is make it so the killers power can't be used within a certain radius of the hook. Killer can still M1 and can still get grabs off of the hook but nurse can't blink right on top of the hook or a blight can't bounce right to it instantly or Leatherface can't rev that saw up and hit the second the unhook is done or any other killers power. Just make sure the dead zone is ONLY horizontal and not vertical so maps like midwich the killers don't get screwed over in a chase just because they're on another floor. Just my dumb thoughts on it.
Something I commented under Otz' video is a system change to how hook states work. Instead of each survivor having 3 states, they now have 2, but the team as a whole has 4 shared hook states which will deplete regardless of who is hooked, and once they're depleted the individual hook states of survivors are used instead. This doesn't change the max hooks per game, but increases the minimum amount of hooks to get the first kill from 3 to 6.
Of course more things would need to be changed for this to actually work since it's a pretty big change.
Survivor Mains are the reason that BHVR nerf and force Killers to rely on Tunneling and Camping hooks as a way to win.
Also, Survivor Mains, if you don't want a Killer to stay at a hook, don't run to the hook just as the Killer has got there.
I mean as you said, there are a few types of camping. There's the lazy "I just want one kill so I'm gonna stand here with Bubba and make sure no one gets to the hook" camping. Then there's the scenario where you just hooked Person A, Person B rushes in for a rescue and Person C is clicking a flashlight while trying to bait a chase to the Eyrie of Crows hell house. In that case it's the survivors essentially forcing a camp because they're playing like twits and not giving the killer any reason to leave the hook. Most "Let's punish the killer for camping" ideas fall apart because differentiating between the two in a game logic sense is hard
No. Don't punish Killers for camping. Most of the time the Killer camps because the Survivors are there trying to get the unhook. Why, as a Killer, would you sabotage your own game by purposely letting the Survivors do what they need to do to win?
i agree with this more than i agreed with otz' specific bandaids. i dont think they are gonna do it even tho they should but otz' might actually be inplemented because it doesnt force the devs to admit they are wrong which is a big ego issue they have
I'm down for addressing core problems without using perks as soon as BHVR fixes boon reusability with something other than the meme perk that is Shattered hope, lmao.
Maybe the win condition could be some kind of bar you fill to represent "suffering" granted to the entity, and whether the survivors die or escape only adds to that and doesn't define it. More hooks equals more suffering, but the entity loses interest on a killer who camps because they aren't actively pursuing more suffering. Meanwhile survivors are powering gens because they light up the dark and push the entity away. So now the game becomes a race for the killer to gather "suffering" quickly, rather than drag the game out for paltry rewards.
I love your idea's but I also wonder, can the programmers (and the engine) do this? And how much would need to be remade from the ground up?
Definitely think we need to incentivize good play styles over punishing bad ones
I don’t need to watch the entire video to just say the obvious.
The “fix” is “encourage” hooks. And some may say “run these perks like Scourage hooks”. But I share the same opinion as many “Scott included” that to fix something you shouldn’t create perks to “bandage-fix” the game.
Survivors kinda got this by getting new Super Borrowed time and current Borrowed time is just a time extender. So a universal hooking advantage should discourage camping cause betting on a better scenario than camping by taking a currently illogical chase would be more fun and effective if you win the chase and are rewarded after the hook.
Thanks for reading.
Camping fix? When you have someone hooked and you get into a chase you get a reward, they die quicker, you get bloodlust faster, a new basekit hex comes into play when you have chased x amount throughout the game. something to encourage leaving hook and getting more!
Should be a much bigger penalty to camping a hook, enough of one to make you want to leave the hook. Obviously, there will be people who just don't care about the penalty, unless it directly affects gameplay and not the end-game reward. Directly affecting gameplay would be too much, I think, but the end-game penalty (like bloodpoint earnings) needs to be big enough to make you not want to do it.
They'd really have to tinker with the game to make it obvious to the game that you're not camping if a survivor makes you take chase around a hook after you have left, cause we all know that something like that would be heavily abused by people. That's the toughest part about making balance and trying to alter things, how the community will react and deal with it. If camping negatively affected a killer's end-game earnings, and the game could barely tell the difference even after you left hook and a survivor brought you back to the hook (to prevent a rescue, for instance), I am willing to bet that 99% of the community would do it on purpose to make the game think the killer was camping and therefore ruin his end-game earnings.
These things are tricky. Liked the video.
And also how can u make a comeback during an endgame bc by then the entire team is gonna protect their teammate at all costs after gen rushing and thus leaving the killers no choice but to camp and tunnel which u can’t blame them. With 10 sec bt basekit it’s much difficult to catch survivors while they run straight to the gate and they easily escape, on top of that they move 10% faster, and also hooks closer the the gates will give u a guaranteed “win” . So imo I think that when all gens are done, the killer should have increased Movement speed, 8 stack stbfl basekit and the perk gets disabled afterwards, faster vault speed and destroying pallets, and reduced pallet stun duration. While all of these values varies on how many survivors are downed or killed and So Imo these changes could give killers a come back chance.