Read more Dead by Daylight ➜ https://deadbydaylight.mgn.gg
Dev notes: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/kb/articles/363-developer-update-october-2022
http://www.twitch.tv/ScottJund
source
Read more Dead by Daylight ➜ https://deadbydaylight.mgn.gg
Dev notes: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/kb/articles/363-developer-update-october-2022
http://www.twitch.tv/ScottJund
source
one dev update, two videos. smart move, scott
Maps are the worst item. Addons make keys very useful, maps are only worthwhile for finishing the totem challenges asap.
I think they just mean that you'll get some bonus if someone else escapes in a game that you died in. It's not gonna be based on any particular play
this is announced when patrick left the dev team, mhh
I don't think they need to be able to analyze 3 gens and reward people for breaking them.
I think they need to fix their map system so 3 gens can't exist in the first place.
https://youtu.be/xw_Fd7kBj1U never forget what Scott did to us
Killer is just as tedious and the matchmaking is odd for them too. You down and ate winning but then lose the entire thing to one Unbreakable or DH. What then? Your MMR should still increase some. Carrying your team and dying is the equivalent of someone using a DH where you thought they didn’t have one. Or an Unbreakable or any other perk. So, no, killer isn’t as straightforward especially considering its 4 v 1
The answer is in front of everyone’s face and yet no one is talking about it: Treat it like every other half-decent competitive game.
You win or lose as a team. Period. An attempt to reward good players distinctly from bad players can not be reasonably confronted over the length of a single game. I don’t know exactly what we want to call a “win” but for the sake of simplicity let’s call it 3 escapes. If the survivors get at least three out, the whole team wins and they all gain MMR. You are gonna be the only common factor in your games (if you solo queue). You might carry some player’s through that game if they’re bad or they may hamper your performance and drag your MMR down, but it’s only for one game. If you’re better than the players at your current MMR then, statistically, over many games you will climb.
It’s not a perfect system, but I have no idea why DbD is so arrogant to believe that they can find a better system than games that have been doing this for a decade.
imo they should factor number of hooks (lower is better) and escapes for the team ranking; the extreme case of getting tunneled to death for a 1k would have just 3 hooks and 3 escapes, which is indicative of a player that performed well. No need to have anything sophisticated, the data on endgame screen should have pretty much anything needed. Sometimes dying still gives you a pip, so the game does have a system to reward good performance, but mmr doesn't take it into account
but Scott think about it, was that game-winning play really a skilled play if you died?
It boils down to the fact that this game is always going to feel awkward with an MMR system. There's no proper way to calculate a number in a game as nuanced as dbd. The only way to rank people justly is making some sort of in depth system that can piece together the play by play and distribute/take points accordingly. Oh wait, they already tried that.
I feel like they could also add an emblem or a pip for doing such an action as far as the edits they have made to that emblem system as far as what counts towards it, so far prayge
Two videos from one updates, huuuuuum… .
So much effort and emphasis put on a number we can't even see. MMR doesn't really matter and it's going to be a lot of work getting it to a place where it does. Maybe one day Dead By Daylight will have proper matchmaking but I don't ever expect it.
This notion that MMR is supposed to somehow micromanage what plays are or aren't skillful is misunderstanding the point of MMR. For example, ELO ratings in chess don't try to get into the nitty gritty of what types of strategies a particular player is good at using and whether or not a specific player might happen to have a favorite opening that is good against another particular player. These types of ratings are meant to, on average, put people into approximate brackets where someone with a higher rating is more likely to win against someone with a lower rating – that's it.
So MMR does not need to get into all the sorts of detail Scott is talking about in order to function. All it needs to do is, on average, be able to say "did the killer win or did the killer lose" and then adjust the ratings accordingly. You don't need to worry about HOW the killer won or lost or how the chases went or if it was a last minute thing or whatever, you just need to have some clear win/loss metric and then let the system go up and down over time over multiple matches.
And the good thing about this upcoming change is it's finally going in the direction of actually treating the survivors as a group for purposes of winning or losing the match which is something the game has needed for a long time. One of the flaws in the current system is that it's possible for reasonable people to think the killer "beat a survivor" even though one of the survivors died. This change (details pending) hopefully rectifies that by allowing the survivors to go up and down more as a group versus individuals.
Honestly, I would be decently satisfied if the system just said "X teammates escaped so you get X additional/fewer points" with it never going too far in the negative.
Patrick already flat out admitted during the hockey analogy stream that the math required to calculate "skillful" plays is too complicated to feasibly design. So it has to be something relatively simple like if you complete a save action or take a hit when all the gens are powered you get flagged with a multiplier so you don't loose as much MMR.
Some one who solos 2 gens and runs a killer for 3 shouldn't get a free escape if their team doesn't save them. They shouldn't go down in MMR though. I don't see how they can't realize how this problem invalidated the MMR system for 65% of players.
If its like hockey, its 2 teams, so either all survivors win or all survivors loose, wheter you died or not
I'm pretty sure its just gonna be something like if 3 surv escape but 1 dies that 1 person doesn't lose as much or gains a bit of mmr.
A play I had made yesterday to save a teammate from a basement Bubba I forced him to chainsaw hopped in a locker and traded a hit for hook save had my overcome up for a burst to get more distance and we all escaped. Had I have died I probably wouldn't have gotten a pip, or even a good score.
This matchmaking shit is just a fairy tale they are spinning to make it seem like they are doing something.
I feel like this teambased system will be as simple as a 'how many teammates escaped' bonus.
Here's my prediction. The new MMR system will be very simple. Each game will be scored twice.
1. First, score the match based on the individual outcome versus the killer. This is the current MMR system.
2. Next, score the match based on the team outcome versus the killer. Because it's BHVR, they'll just use the killer's existing win/loss criteria. If the killer won the match, the survivor team lost (and vice-versa). Just like individual MMR, the amount gained/lost will depend on relative MMR between the two opponents.
There might be a coefficient applied to the team-based score to make it more/less important than individual performance.
It would be nice if the team-based score were only used as a bonus and never as a penalty (as Scott suggests). However, MMR is usually a zero-sum system, and I believe Patrick stated this is true for DBD's ELO system.
The end result will be a blend between individual MMR and team-based MMR. IMO that's not a terrible idea. It will incentivize players to be more altruistic than the current system.
The devs must've looked at their killer mmr list and been like, "something's wrong here?" lol 😂
None of this matters when the cap is 1600 lol. Way too low for it to make a difference everyone who's decent at the game is above that
I feel l the team MMR will still be based on escapes, but it will instead be based on team escapes instead of your personal escape. If 4 people die, it goes down. If 3 people die, it goes down but not as much. If two people escape, it would either stay the same or go up slightly. If everyone escapes, it goes up more. This might be weird to implement as the MMR change wouldn't happen until after the match is over for everyone, but I am sure they could find a way to change it after the match, even if you left the lobby.
I can't help but feel like the whole MMR system is meant to help and benefit only the players who don't even know it exists. Anyone dedicated enough to DBD to be here watching this video isn't to whom BHVR are catering with these kinds of updates. It's weird that they even discuss MMR at all tbh, other than maybe to not get backlash if it were to be datamined or noticed.
The smart way of implementing a system to reward team based plays would be to make it so MMR isn't given out until the game ends. If they want to take it a step further, they can make it so it uses the old system if a player leaves (after dying or otherwise) and doesn't stay to spectate. If they do, it will potentially use this team based MMR. Then they don't have to worry about any desync in the MMR since the players that aren't staying don't get their MMRs delayed, and the players that stay are well.. still there until the game ends.
On the actual gain/loss of MMR from this system, I really hope its more akin to "3 survivors died 1 escaped so all 4 lose MMR" or "3 survivors out, 1 died; all 4 gain MMR" rather than just "Well you died, but you got a lot of points in-game so you lose a bit less MMR" since the first system is honestly all it needs. Their hockey analogy was shitty and came off as tone-deaf but honestly, it does make sense. The problem was how they implemented survivor MMR since it completely contradicted that team effort that exists. If you loop the killer for 4 gens and the other 3 survivors escape but you don't, you should GAIN MMR for that, not lose it like with the current system. With that in place, it works in such a way that rewards team plays more and thats all they need to change imo.
Be cool if they judged different values rather than solely kills and escapes. Maybe they could give you a grade on how many people you saved, or how many generators you repaired. They could call them emblems.
Just a thought
So what I’m hearing is… they need to make it like the old MMR system? Like this whole thing has been incredibly pointless?
Why is the emblem system good enough to determine pipping but not MMR?
it actually won't be an ai at all. behaviour is going to hire people to watch each and every game and then put it to a vote if a play was skilled to begin with
Oh, it’ll be simpler than that. Your ‘loss’ will be scaled to how many people escaped. So if you die, you only ‘lose’ a little if everyone else escapes, and if everyone dies, you ‘lost’ more.
there is no skill in dbd
My interpretation of the "MMR decay" system was that you wont lose MMR while not playing. But when you come back, the MMR from games is essentially multiplied by 2-3 to move you down faster to adjust you to your current skill level.
Honestly, if it works like this, it doesnt seem like a decent way of adjusting the MMR in most cases.
one thing that comes to mind is protection hits. im sure that might be a part of it.
Don't worry, I also forgot you were suppose to read about the match making.
A lot of games, such as csgo, you have a score and are ranked against your team on a scoreboard. The player with the highest score is at the top and the player with the lowest is at the bottom. In ranked matches, both teams "pool" mmr points, with the winning team getting all of the points possible. These points are distributed to the winning players based off the scoreboard, with the top player getting the most mmr points and the bottom player getting the least. I'm assuming they're going to do something like this, but base it off of bloodpoints.
3:37 I'll tell you how to do that, Scott. You create a points system that values certain actions that directly lead to you or your teammates surviving and escaping the match. You make escaping grant the most points, but have all other beneficial actions add up to small amounts so that at the end of the match, you are given a score that roughly estimates how well you performed.
🙂
Killer mmr should be based on hooks instead of kills. I would say getting 9+ hooks should be considered a win for killer regardless of kills and 8-6 is a draw, anything below should be a loss. And that’s going for hooks, not hook stages, if s survivor goes to second on hook then they should be given a half point, and if they die after that then no point for the death. At this point a win condition should be given so that people don’t just make kills their win condition.
I've always strongly thought they shouldn't over-complicate it and reward you for doing game changing tasks at specific times (ie. getting a save during endgame collapse, taking a down for a teammate and ending up dying that way during EGC (regardless of whether or not the teammate gets out because the attempt was there), finishing a gen and then going down and dying because of it, etc. There's so many other simple ways to determine what makes a skilled and altruistic player and I really don't think it should be hard for BHVR to figure it out
It should be something ike this:
You die = it is counted as lost game = you lose MMR points according to your previous points and the killer current mmr
You survive = is is counted as a win game = you gain MMR the same way as before
Exceptions:
You survive escaping with hatch without the exit powered = it is a tie, you do not earn or lose points
You die but the other 3 survivors escape = it is a tie, you do not earn or lose points
can we just go back to grades being matched? its not the best but it was def. funnier than this shit
First of all killers should definetly not work based solely on kills. That's why you have so much camping and Tunneling, because there is a treshold to where getting kills no longer means you lost, so camping and tunneling makes you achieve that treshold. This IS EXACTLY HOW "COMPETITIVE" DBD WORKS. There's a treshold to where guaranteeing a specific scenario results in a win for killer, that scenario ALWAYS involves camping and tunneling.
THIS IS NOT A HEALTHY THING FOR PUBLIC MATCHES. And the game being fairer and better designed would make "Competitive" a whole lot better to enjoy watching and playing. I sincerely doubt anyone wants to chase the same person 3 times in a row or stay there Camping for whatever amount of time.
Second, they can very easily aproach the Team Performance aspect. If there's 2 survivors on 1 gen that's Team Work already, you already get Co-op BP for it, so it's already in game what Team Work is. Same for Rescues and Heals, the Emblem and individual BP system already accounts for all the Team Work scenarios. All they have to do is create a dedicated Category for the system to account how manny Team Work interactions each player had. And then have MMR reflect that aswell.
I would actually go a step forward with this and create a MVP award for the Survivor with the most Team Work interactions.
This change to how survivors are perceived makes sense with bringing SoloQueue up to SWF standards and benefits killers aswell because you're more likely to find multiple survivors instead of finding just one survivor at a time.
After seeing how strong survivors are as a 4v1 or how strong a killer can be when survivors are "obligated" to stay together, you can make Balance changes that make sense.
I don’t think team based rating has anything to do with skill, I think it means something more like I’d you, or two survivors escape the match is a win, and the mmr break doesn’t seem like it lowers ur mmr for being gone a long time, it just makes you next couple matches have a massive effect on your mmr so the first game will still be normal but after that you’re going to be playing easier matches if you lost that one
all that mmr did to me is make me unable to switch killers in lobby when someone's name is "please play mikey" or something 🙁
I refuse to believe BHVR will actually add variables unless they PARTIALLY implement the emblem system (which I think is only really flawed with the Evader emblem using terror radius instead of distance to killer as you can do a gen in a killers face like a Wraith or be chased by a cloaked Wraith). I think that would be the easiest way to do it and have the emblems act as a sort of multiplier depending on the amount of kills. Say 4 escapes the emblems would reward you more MMR. Or you have way more emblem points than your team and everyone died, so you lose less MMR than normal while everyone else that didn't do much would lose far more MMR than you. Using emblems would help differentiate a player crouching behind a rock in the middle of a nowhere on the opposite end of the map to the killer compared to someone crouching behind a rock trying to do a sneaky save. Because one of these people will actually get Altruism and Evader MMR multiplier bonus.
Even without any variables, with enough games even if you have 1 really bad team one time. While it may count as a loss that time for you, but it will do so for your team as well. So those bad players can go to lose another match while you can win another one and eventually start seeing better team mates and not meet those bad people anymore, so you shouldn't see this issue with enough games. And should also see in team mates with matchmaking that also prefer to die for 3 other people to escape as the MMR gets higher. Or people that rather just leave instead of risking potentially bad altruistic plays. Where as the players that do risky end game saves and cause the killer to 4k due to over the top Altruism will lose MMR.
Either way I see this change as a win. If anything the far greater issue with DBD is still map RNG and solo queue. Hell even without RNG the basic difference between Cowshed and Shelter Woods is stupid. We are long overdue for map rebalance and solo queue changes. I am glad for the team MMR change, but I wish they changed their priorities.